The system that's cheaper to run will "bankrupt" the system.
The system that's more expensive to run, however, is going to create miracles, even though it has no record of creating miracles.
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The system that's cheaper to run will "bankrupt" the system.
The system that's more expensive to run, however, is going to create miracles, even though it has no record of creating miracles.
I did look at the slideshow and I do understand the lingo. I've been reading and listening to transit discussions for years. I know what a BRT bus is. I've experienced a BRT bus as recently as a few weeks ago in downtown Orlando when I was there for business. I've also been on light rail. They are not equivalent.
There is absolutely no reason why LRT would bankrupt all transit in the region. The transit in the region is already bankrupt. The problem is the funding scheme. If Woodward LRT to 8 Mile would bankrupt the transit system, then the extensive BRT system you are talking about would more than bankrupt it.
Detroit needs real transit infrastructure. The kind that results in major development. All of the articulated buses in the world are not going to put Detroit on a path to urban revitalization. In so far as transportation is concerned, the current bus routes should continue to operate regardless of LRT or BRT. They should be consolidated and improved, but they do not need replaced with articulated buses to be effective.
The FTA wanted to supply Detroit with the funding. The only reason they would not have is if the local leadership here couldn't get its act together, as usual.
This whole transit discussion has become a joke. We went from plans to putting together a basic system to talking about some vague possibility of a regional BRT system. It's really ridiculous. The fact that you and others put so much stock in this is also ridiculous.
Woodward LRT was the start of a great thing, especially when coupled to the other proposed Chicago-Detroit line that stopped in New Center. With that setup, you actually had a spine of infrastructure in and out of the city. LRT could have easily been extended into Oakland County and new arteries could have been added over time. The resulting development boom on Woodward would have encouraged LRT expansion.
BRT is doomed to produce very little spinoff development. The suburbs will bemoan "no more taxes for Detroit buses." Everyone will be discouraged by the results of BRT and future, serious transit plans will be put in jeopardy. Creating a huge BRT system is the stupidest thing Metro Detroit could do. It costs a ton of money and achieves only marginal benefits above regular old buses.
I don't care anymore. I hope you get your BRT system. It will be poorly funded and reaffirm everyone's belief that transit is only for poor people, and will end up being just like SMART and DDOT- miserable failures with bad service. Everyone's taste of transit will be further soured. No significant development will occur. Your "articulated" buses will drive along empty down streets lined with abandoned buildings. The curbside stations will be covered in graffiti and litter. It will be another big laughing stock disappointment.
If people want real progress in Metro Detroit, then build real infrastructure. Build the kind that actually attracts new people and new investment to the area. Build one that organically reins in sprawl and encourages density. Use buses to feed people into that infrastructure. Anything less is a waste of time and money.
We 35 year olds with disposable incomes and degrees are the ones paying for everything going forward, including the social programs supporting the prior generation's retirement. If I have to live here and shell out chunks of my paycheck, I want a say in how the place looks and functions. If you want me to buy a house in this region, somebody had better start doing something about the dysfunction and decline or kiss my contribution goodbye. I really don't think it's too much to ask to build some basic infrastructure that would improve the viability of the region.
Well put, BrushStart.
I couldn't agree more BrushStart.
I agree with Brushstart as well.
But...I think you're asking for the impossible in Detroit.
Had anyone heard anything from Bing or Snyder since the cancellation of the LRT?
"What you and many others on this forum are doing is taking the bait from Snyder and Bing. Do you honestly believe this tri-county triangle will ever happen? There isn't even ridership or funding to support it on, much less any bus service at all on one of the routes [[M-59). Fact is, our leaders have failed us, and if you are on the side of transit you should be rallying to continue the project that has been in the works for over 5 years... all that time and millions of dollars wasted and you call it a slam dunk? Wow."
I second this. The fact that L. Brooks Patterson has said almost nothing about this proposal tells me that he doesn't expect it to go anywhere. Here's what Patterson had to say about funding in Crains:
"Regional leaders have also have examined other options like a gas tax or local sales tax to fund the system, but Patterson said a new tax would remain a tough sell for voters in a referendum. All ideas were still under review, he said, although Hackel noted that the motorist registration fees idea seemed to have the most traction."
No money means no system. It's that simple.
Meanwhile in New Delhi, Manila, Hanoi, and other cities with a steadily growing GDP but a lot less money are building what Detroit built a hundred and ten years ago and scrapped fifty years later. They are building universities and hospitals and developing the know-how we in the west have had for a long time in engineering. What cities will they model themselves on in order to profit and what others will they scrutinize in order to avoid decline is only a matter of conjecture.
But take heart; ideas are stronger than lack of same.:
http://www.fwrail.org/
We can also look at the massive expanse of Los Angeles and relative lack of density. A whole lot of people thought it was way beyond reasonable to attempt this. L.A. did its homework and implemented a great metro and extensive light rail system.
Tom Bradley, the 20 year tenured black mayor of Los Angeles was instrumental in building the light rail network.
Los Angeles County has the cohesiveness that Detroit needs to do this. It wont be possible to address the city and metro's decline until there is a joining of hearts, minds and hands; and unfortunately, impossibility is a possible but not a positive outcome.
But this is speaking of transit, the wider problems of Detroit also need to be solved in a collegial manner by all counties. What other way is there?
I am 35 years old and fortunate enough to have a couple of them degree-thingys and some disposable income. I don't think your thoughts are right on at all. Your statement that "we" are the only ones "paying for everything going forward" is arrogant and ignorant. There are plenty of people without degrees and without "disposable" incomes that work hard and pay taxes, and plenty more to come going forward.
Believe it or not, there are WAY more of the 30 somethings with degrees than the handful who live downtown and pine about light rail, and WAY more than the handful in any suburb who pine similarly and claim they would move downtown if there is light rail. I'm going to get hypocritcal here and suggest that most people in that small group of degree-carrying, disposable income having 30-some year olds could give a shit about light rail going up Woodward...In your mind they are all "stupid."
What you say above about paying for retirement I agree with, but it is rhetorical.
In YOUR world, you feel entitled to demand that your government "build some basic infrastructure that would improve the viability of the region." In YOUR mind, that means light rail from Jefferson to Woodward because this will improve YOUR life. YOU assume that the tiny minority, the handful, of sooooooo precious 30-ish degree-bearing, disposable-income having folks who live downtown, and probably some others that you claim would move downtown from the suburbs are supporting the masses and represent the majority of people in this region who work, pay taxes, and vote, and thus would overwhelmingly approve an increase in taxes to pay for this. You call local leaders stupid, you call BRT stupid, you think everything short of LRT is stupid. Let me politely suggest that those who masturbate to their degrees and disposable incomes do not use words like stupid or stupidest.
So I will indulge in more hypocrisy and arrogance here, and predict that if I were to step into the shoes of ANY taxpaying citizen - not just the DINKs with degrees and disposable income - I would think that light rail falls pretty far down the list of things I'd want to raise my taxes to pay for at this point in time. Stupid? I'll continue my indulgement by saying that I would guess if you ask a majority of Detroiters- and I'm talking about residents of the City of Detroit - whether they would prefer light rail from Jefferson to Woodward versus a bus system designed to run rapidly and on time up three major arteries covering the city FIRST - the vast majority of these "stupid" people would go for buses first, light rail second. Now I know in all your infinite wisdom as a degree-having 30-something with disposable income you think this is a ruse and a sham and will never work, etc., etc., but one can conjecture all day about that being the case with light rail as well, new bridges, or any other goll-dern thing the government proposes to spend money on.
Leaving this area because you are so special and think local leaders and voters and ideas for BRT and federal money for BRT and hesitation to put a billion dollar tax hike on ballots, etc., etc., are stupid and light rail is the Golden Goose is simply your perogative.
It really is a shame that all wisdom must die with so few of you. Soap box rant over.
The bottom line here is we need to improve transit. This is a given.
We have too many people ignoring the elephant in the room that we need to address to improve it correctly. There are two major hurdles that need to be overcome. Most importantly we need money that is dedicated soley for transit capital and operations. Secondly, we need to make sure that all transit providers are working together in order to achieve the needs of the region.
An RTA with specific language in it that allows it to collect revenues and coordinate services is where this needs to start. We don't have one in this region. We do have something known as a Regional Transportation Coordinating Committee, which is made up of the big four, they have decided only one thing: that Detroit should get 65 percent of the funding while the rest of the region should get 35 percent. This was decided about 30 years ago when SEMTA was still in existance. Since then we have had major shifts in population, and our needs have grown. At the same time, the RTCC allows DDOT and SMART to run autonomously. This needs to change. Instead of having the taxing power go only to SMART, it should be going to an RTA who will assess the needs of the whole system, reduce duplicative routes and programs, and be accountable to every citizen of the region. Without this taxing power in place you will not be able to have funding for BRT or LRT or even the MiTrain that sits in wait of the operating funds needed to schedule regular service.
You can stump all you want for BRT, LRT, or even a teleporter a la Star Trek, the fact is it ain't gunna happen untill we fix what we currently have. These are the concerns that FTA has raised. Considering none of these projects get built without the consent and funding of the FTA you need to take thier advice seriously. It was the FTA that told Bing and Snyder no, this is not Patterson or some conspiracy to keep the educated out of cass corridor!
The one concern for me is the unruly passengers that would had rode the light rail. Who would want to ride the light rail or BRT with the same unruly, rowdy, and disrespectful passengers that rides the DDOT and sometimes SMART. I remember riding a Semta Bus back in the 80's and 90s. You could hear a pin drop on the bus. DDOT in the 80s, 90s, and today has the worst riding experience. I am not saying that everyone who rides DDOT is unruly, uncouth, and disrespectful. I am saying that there are many who catches DDOT. A couple of years ago DDOT had posted signs asking passengers to be courteous. HAH! Some grown people feel that no one should tell them what to say and how to say it. My concern for Light Rail or Rapid Busses is not having a semi pleasurable ride for the rowdy, loud, and disrespectful people who them also.
Transit systems in all major cities has problems with unruly people.
That's not an excuse to not invest further in a transit system however. There are other ways to handle unruly passengers besides spoiling key infrastructure improvements for the majority. If anything, I would bet majority of these unruly passengers are just children trying to get to/from school, who are generally harmless.
Possibly true, but hardly decisive.Quote:
'll continue my indulgement by saying that I would guess if you ask a majority of Detroiters- and I'm talking about residents of the City of Detroit - whether they would prefer light rail from Jefferson to [8 mile along] Woodward versus a bus system designed to run rapidly and on time up three major arteries covering the city FIRST - the vast majority of these "stupid" people would go for buses first, light rail second.
I don't, in general, think people are "stupid", but they are quite ignorant about public policy and generally don't have well-founded opinions about specific issues because they haven't given them much thought nor do they have much background to inform those opinions. I doubt that more than 1% of the city's population could tell you what BRT service is, or why it would be more rapid or on-time than current bus service or alternatively what the proposed LRT service would be like,so asking them which they would prefer is unlikely to be enlightening.
But let's do a little thought experiment, and assume that in fact everyone did understand what BRT would provide, and what LRT would provide, and let's further assume that in fact it wouldn't take any longer to get the BRT running than it would have taken to get the LRT going if it hadn't been stopped. I think it is highly probable that if people were looking primarily at their own short-term interests, as is quite normal, more of them would still favor the BRT plan because it provides service in more areas, and therefore probably more people would see the plan as benefiting them directly. Would that mean that it is the better plan? I think not.. The LRT plan is intended to provide more benefit to a concentrated area, and to attract and benefit people and businesses that aren't yet present in the city, A proper decision would have to weigh those factors as well, and not just count the number of current residents who prefer one or the other.
I didn't say that the LRT or BRT should had been squashed for the reasons of unruly passengers. I was saying that many people in Detroit and it's suburbs find it difficult to ride transit for the uncouth, rude, and unruly passengers or any color. You are wrong when you say that they are mostly kids. Many of the passengers who are loud, obnoxious, rude, talking loud on their cell phones, and ready to fight with no or little provocation, are adults. I hope that whatever this city get rules are enforced to curtail some of the unwanted behaviors.
Well-reasoned argument. Thanks.
People's opinions are usually a poor way of deciding things. I laugh whenever the media interviews the 'man on the street'. They pretend to be bringing us information to understand the situation -- but they usually just find someone who agrees with their simplistic view of the incident and present them to us. Anything insightful is left on the cutting room floor. I don't agree fully with him, but this Jessie/Occupy chap vs. Fox News. Didn't fit their story, so it didn't make the air. What I'm sure they aired was some Occupy idiot -- who fit their image of Occupy.
Back on the subject...Fortunately, in this case, since there's massive amounts of money needed to implement transit, the federal government is ignoring all the talk, and just acting reasonably. A democratic-friendly, urban focused administration has said 'go home and built a nice little BRT and see how it goes'. Come back when you've grown up.
I don't know what would be so hard with branching the people mover track at Grand Circus Park and running a rail line over the top of the sidewalk and having stations over the top of Woodward every half mile or so out to 8 Mile. You'd have a southbound train coming over the Fisher and then merging into the exsisting people mover track, going all the way around the people mover loop and coming back up Broadway through Grand Circus Park and back northbound to 8 Mile over the other sidewalk. There could be a Grand Circus station at Adams and Woodward on the southbound track, northbound trains wouldn't stop at this station. Run the train over the top of the sidewalks with stations over the top of Woodward every half mile or so out to 8 Mile, turn the train around at 8 Mile and do it all over again towards downtown. That would be able to include the people mover into the light rail system. It would be a small scale Chicago loop with trains going only in one direction. At worst Detroit should have a system on par with Cleveland by now.
It would be reasonable if the other spokes, Graitot, Grand River, Michigan, and Jefferson would be connected in some fashion.
However, with the current political climate, the only thing that we can even hope for now out of this, would be the establishment of a Regional Transit Authority that would represent all of Metro Detroit's transit needs. An RTA that would have teeth, to do what's necessary for the region to make it viable.
If an RTA isn't established for this area, then Metro Detroit public transit will remain where it is today.
If I were a transit planner, I would have extended the people mover throughout the main spokes of the city, but with the current economy, transit is so bad, you might as well give all the riders a voucher for a used car.
I hope my bluntness is not too offensive, and it's certainly not meant as a personal thing, seeing as how I don't know any of you, but we don't need a Lionel train set, here.
What the hell ever gave anyone the impression that a rail line, running up & down Woodward to & from 8 Mile, would effect some kind of magical improvement?
Woodward is a single North-South connector. Not everyone lives in Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale, Highland Park, etc. If a person lives near McNichols & Wyoming and works, or [[for whatever reason) has business or pleasure, downtown, what are they to do? Drive east along McNichols to Woodward, park their car at some thus-far imaginary safe location, and hop aboard the rail-line? Why?
I know we are not suggesting that such a citizen might rely on catching a bus to Woodward. I mean, theoretically, yeah, maybe that could work, but would I depend on it? If you were my employer, would you be OK with my depending on it?
The time to install rail-lines to intra-connect Detroit, a city which now is, oh, about 35 times larger than is appropriate for its current population, was many decades ago. Now, Detroit is dead-flat broke, and nobody with any goddam brains is going to get all ex-ci-tated about the idea of a light-rail system running a whole bunch of nobody up & down the Woodward corridor.
Lionel train set... indeed! I agree. This is too, TOO much money and resources sunk into one area - straight shot. You're still jammed up for transportation if you live say on Yosimite [[a real street) off Joy Road and need to get to a Job in Redford, Livonia or Centerline etc. And these rail systems are rarely sustainable, become overrun with crime as is happening in Seattle and end up being avoided by those whom they were to serve.
And until the larger issue of personal property theft is addressed I AM NOT PARKING MY CAR ANYWHERE along a rail line for the thieves to pick it clean or steal it while I board a train. NOPE.
Precisely. I found myself without a car for a couple of months and thus [[smile) a captive audience to the rudeness, filth, loud profanity and generally craziness. It was mostly adults. Though sharing the bus with teens is a joy as well.
Some lines are notoriously worse than others [[the Dexter bus is a real trip for example).
When running well and with some plan to curtail obnoxious and dangerous behavior the bus is an alternative to those not driving or able to drive. We need a regional system to replace DDOT and SMART rather than a one road train.
Another year has passed without efficient mass transit for the Metro Detroit region.
There's plenty of blame to go around, but the important thing now, is that a Regional Transit Authority is established to include Wayne, Washtneaw [[do forgive me if I spell that wrong), Macomb, and yes, Oakland County.
This RTA has to definitely have a police force allowed to cover these areas. To protect passengers as well as drivers. No one is going to use public transit without their safety being guaranteed.
We shouldn't stop the employees from establishing unions. But we must make sure that these buses run on time. In fact, as soon as the RTA is established, all buses should be relabeled to a name for the transit authority chosen by the people who live here in Metro Detroit.
And lets not call it SEMTA or SMART. It is already associated with failure.
In the future, I want to be able to go on to my smartphone and have an app that will tell me when exactly will the bus arrive at the bus stop I'm standing at, or whenever the LRT is built, when it will stop at the nearest station.
Other cities I'm sure keep accurate real-time track of their buses and trains. Detroit deserves no less than the best in efficient public transportation and the technology to make it better.
Perhaps this has been posted somewhere between pages 5-24, but reading the same "Detroit sucks, I had hope this rail would be the salvation, but Snyder & his girlfriend Bing ruined everything so I'm moving" crap got old.
What was killed was NOT, as far as I can tell, a transit system. It was a couple of lines that would have looked pretty & allowed about a dozen men to pat themselves on the back as they get in their Mercedes & drove home.
I saw NO plans to actually integrate the M1 line into any effective transit system. Transfer to busses or the People Mover? How about transferring between the two rail lines proposed. There was a natural choke point built into it... and not once did I read anything about transfers between systems being anything other than a system of "You want to get on that? Pay another fare."
Until an efficient system that makes life actually easier for those who use it is not planned & built, public transit will be a joke.
After more than a decade of swiping a Metrocard in NYC to get everywhere I needed to be, I am back home, driving a Mercury hybrid & living in Detroit's Elmwood Park area. I would love nothing more than to be able to keep the car in the garage & use it as supplemental transportation. This dead rail line would have done nothing for me. All it would have done is provide a bit of traffic relief downtown on game days.
A system where you can step out your door, count on a schedule, swipe a card & get where you need to go efficiently [[both in time & $$$) was not proposed/killed here.
I had a fear that this half-assed system would have actually done more to "prove" that rail lines were not feasible in Detroit. Was eliminating Woodward buses even part of the proposal, or would the rail have been "supplemented" by the same bus lines that currently run?
As with most things I have seen during the Bing administration, this was long on talk, without any tangible evidence of how it will actually work & improve the lives of those who live in the city.