Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Just trying to get some laughs, not harm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Just trying to get some laughs, not harm.
Keep in mind it is a past employee of Icahn group that was running the automotive parts aspect,which has a junk rating.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Icahn has always been a corporate raider that has purchased companies based on administration whims.
Ichan has made it clear they have no investment in Lordstown.
IMO what is brewing? Is the positioning to collect on the current federal offerings that range from a chump change amount of 35 million all the way up to $53 billion that is fueling the EV industry.
Its a repeat of the solar industry,everybody jumped in the beginning,collecting billions in government funding and after the details and technology were worked out,the Chinese jumped in and cut everybody’s nuts off by undercutting and flooding the market.
Its the same world wide every time the government steps in with funding,that industry blossoms,when they back off of the funding level it crashes.
Sure if you can afford to risk and or lose,you can bank buy buying the stock and riding the wave and pull out just before the crash,but it is always the little guy that is last to know when that is.
No politics but it is all 100% based on politics,Ichan became junk status because he invested heavy in oil,based on the previous administrations support of the oil industry.
Administration changes and views change and it all can crash,current administration is pro EV and pumping billions into it close to trillions,mid terms are coming up that could put a wrench in that or if there is a change of administration in the next election cycle it all goes away.
They may be able to put vehicles on the street,but every other manufacturer has parking lots full across the country filled with vehicles that they cannot complete.
They are established companies that have been around 100 years and now some EV manufacturer is going to get materials,chips and other stuff that nobody else in the world can get ?
Shure Bezos SAID he would buy 100,000 units from Rivian,but he did not did he,Rivian said they had a standing order of 100,000 units from Bezos.
They do not specify any deadline to fill that order or what happens if they fail to fill that order in the agreed deadline.
They can say it is a standing order for 100,000 vehicles to be filled in the next 100 years.
As we have seen with Lordstown,simply saying you have a standing order,is exactly that.
Saying you have a standing order.
It’s Wall Street pump and dump before an IPO.
The only thing you keep repeating,is disputing things that I have posted that came directly from Lordstown.Quote:
Originally Posted by davewindsor
Take a nap if you are tired.
I stick with munis,far less smoke screens and easy enough to do your own research,the only thing that sucks about those is when cities like Detroit gets their financial act together and the interest rates drop down to 2% like with what just happened.
What’s going on now is okay with day trading.
Tesla already has a street-able EV platform that has been tested and in production,you do not think they could easily put out a last mile delivery vehicle,Ford has a EV truck already the F150.
What does Lordstown and Rivian have for the market that is not already out there?
Unless they can tap the 10,000 GVW and up,it is just expensive eye candy.
What good is in claiming a Rivian has a 7500 GVW rating when it loses 50% battery when you tow with it,you can’t stick a 4x8 piece of plywood in the back,you cannot realistically tow with it over any reasonable distance.
So what purpose does it serve outside of generating revenue for the shareholders.
Ford does not need Rivian and they are or will be direct competition,so what are they doing outside of lending their name for creditably in an IPO and looking to make $ money for their shareholders before they bail.
Nothing wrong with that.
I am forming a company that can now attach tits on a bull,you interested in investing before I go IPO ?
I have a standing order fir 60 of em.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...vs/5572732001/
A couple guys I know work for Rivian,.. and they tell me the plan is to go into production THIS MONTH.
Will be interesting to see if that happens.
With the IPO comes disclosure
Rivian took a 1 billion dollar loss in the first 6 months of 2020 and is placing the IPO value at 80 billion.
The deal with Amazon that was touted as a order of 100,000 does indeed come out to be not as advertised.
The e-commerce giant will have exclusive rights to Rivian’s delivery vehicles for four years after receiving the first, and will have the right to first refuse to purchase the trucks for two years after that. Amazon has ordered 100,000 last-mile trucks by 2030, and the first 10,000 are due to be delivered this year.
But the filing shows that Amazon’s logistics unit has no obligation to purchase any Rivian electric delivery vehicles — and that it can still work with any other potential vehicle partners.
While the EDV agreement states that we will be compensated for some development costs, it does not include any minimum purchase requirements or restrict logistics from developing vehicles or cooperating with or procuring similar vehicles from third parties,” she said.
https://711web.com/rivian-details-1-...in-ipo-file-2/
The devil is always in the details.
The stock after the initial IPO is crashing like the Heidelberg after the COO retired and the meeting of expectations of only a little over 1000 units for the year.
It dropped $100 value almost overnight.
In comparison Tesla delivered 70,000 units in the same time frame in China alone.
Side note
Cohens 250 million investment in Tesla in 2017 is now worth 1.6 billion
His 11 million investment in game stop is now worth 1.2 billion
I still think because outside of building automobiles Ford also plays the stock market,their backing in Rivian was just to lend credence in order to pump up the value,because they bailed just before the IPO and banked millions in the process.
Interesting how all of this equates to investment vehicles,and little to do with actual vehicles.
People are making billions on just the thought,verses an actual product.
On a side note, I've actually been seeing a Rivian pickup on the road, albeit with an M plate. Looks sharp.
And Rivian vehicles are made in the U.S. What a novelty!
Ford bailed on Rivian before the IPO? So they sold the stock?
Well,that was my input,word is they are looking to sell,they have 100 million shares and it was a Trojan horse type of a deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satiricalivory
They are direct competition why would they tie up 100 million in Rivian,the original intent was to cross platform before they had different objectives,but Ford has their own platform so no need to keep propping up Rivian.
You have to remember that the only reason the manufacturers jumped onto the EV bandwagon with commitments of 2030 was because the current administration hinted that they would delay current emission standards that were getting ready to kick in if they got serious about EVs.
After they all announced their intentions the administration backtracked and still implemented the new strict standards.
So now they have to comply with increased standards in existing ICE vehicles but in order to save face,move forward with EVs.
Which is going to require double the cash in order to fund both aspects.
Legally and technically,no they did not sell before the IPO,but in reality it was gone and now most believe they want out,because really they have no reason to be there,Amazon still holds 20%.
Rivn -7.26 %
F + 2.00 %
People moved from Rivian to Ford increasing Fords value because they knew Fords play after it was hinted that they were going to part ways,or had different objectives,it was just a pump and dump,Ford is no dummy they can build their own platform as they did,Rivian was just a thing to appease the administration and make a few bucks along the way.
Pretty smart on Fords part,they would have won either way it went.
But it shows the start up’s what they are really up against,the long entrenched manufacturers have been in the game for over 100 years and they know how to play it.
If I was into stocks like that,long term,I would be investing in Ford or GM EV wise,because they have an infrastructure and buying power in place that outside of nich markets, it would be pretty hard to compete against them long term.
Because of their size they are not nimble,but like a freight train,once they get rolling,I would not want to be a start up in their way,just ask Tucker.
Ford's early investment in EV maker Rivian will add $8.2 billion to its Q4 bottom line, the carmaker said late Tuesday.
Ford invested $500 million in Rivian in 2019 -- building that to $1.2 billion in the following years -- and has a total stake of around 12% in the Irvine, California-based EV group.
Rivian shares, once valued at more than $100 billion, closed at $73.16 last night, pegging their market cap at just under $66 billion.
https://www.thestreet.com/markets/fo...ian-investment
Rivian lays off hundreds of workers as its struggles create a $19 billion headache for Amazon and Ford
In the first half of this year, its stock tumbled 75%, leading to hefty on-paper losses for its investors.
Amazon reported losses of $11.5 billion on its stake between the first and second quarters. During the same period, Ford lost $7.9 billion on its Rivian investment. Together, the two own roughly 27% of Rivian's outstanding shares.
https://www.businessinsider.com/elec...edium=news_tab
A lot of these EV start ups remind me of the dot com tech days,with massive IPOs then crashes.
^ Agree! Ditto for Bitcoin et al.
Ford owned about 102 million shares of Rivian. Between the IPO and May 2022, they sold about 7 million shares [at a substantial gain on their investment]. In May, they sold about 8 million more shares [now holding about 87 million shares). The Rivian IPO was at $78/share. Rivian closed at $34 on Friday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satiricalivory
Just a quick run down
GM 36.26
Ford 14.69
Toyota 162.59
Mazda 577.05 zoom zoom
Tesla 891.45
Honda 25.72
Lucid 18.25
Li 46.00 [[Chinese)
Volkswagen 192.20
It does not really appear as though a manufacturers commitment to green is really helping their bottom line.
The very reason for a corporation to exist is to make money for its shareholders.
Tesla remains the standout,but a lot of their technology is patented and is used by other manufacturers,so the revenue from that could be increasing their bottom line.
The new shareholder complaint is asking for class-action status on behalf of all common stock shareholders who participated in the Rivian IPO on November 10, 2021, when the stock was offered at $78 per share. The day before the price hike was announced, Rivian traded for around $67 per share. But, the lawsuit points out, in the days after the price hike, the company's value has tumbled to around $42 per share.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...awsuit%20says.
- The company raised an astounding $13.7 billion through its initial public offering last November, and the public markets bought in from there. The stock's market cap peaked at more than $150 billion just days after it started trading. But in the months since, Rivian's market cap has fallen to roughly $26 billion.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/...vestors-shoul/
What sets Tesla apart from the others is they already have their own battery production.
Their stock price is at $8.60 down from a high of $100 at their initial offering of $100 - opps.
The Japanese car companies are a special situation, as they aren't just car companies, but vertically integrated along with steel mills, investment banks, insurance companies, and other related industries. They aren't a single company per se, but they all own controlling stock interests in each other and coordinate nearly everything. I read once that Toyota makes more money on their investment in their related life insurance company than selling cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
The initial offering was $78 and the high was $172.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
That may not be reflected in the historical data due to dilution.
$78 but if you are buying into,after commissions and fees you are closer to $100.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
So even if you sold now at the $8.60 ,depending on how many shares you bought,you may have to write a check for the balance.
How would you like to be the one that bought in at $170?
Not that it really matters it is all just numbers in the sky,half the billionaires are so based on paper and not real wealth.
A good depression and they would be sitting in the soup line next to you.
As a rule, when investing in companies that loose $120,000.00 on every individual item they manufacturer, don't invest any money you can't afford to loose.
Only one EV company ever turned the corner and made a profit. And of those loosing money, none have lost money as spectacularly as Rivian.
Good God, My nephew's FIL took delivery about a year ago after a 2 year wait...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
All of this tech stuff is reminiscent of the Dot Com days,billions raised and lost on paper based on a dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Seems to be better returns on that actual suppliers,chips and such than the actual finished product,but there seems to be a competition to see who can produce the ugliest truck possible,there are a couple of the Tesla trucks buzzing around where I live,they look worse up close.
Really all of that stuff is like you say investing with the intent of being able to lose lots of money with no impact so it’s mostly high income speculation.
Even with the dot com phase the only small person that I know that made millions was an acquaintance that sat there all day coming up and registering porn site names to sell in the future.
He made $500 - $600k on names that cost him $9.99 to register at the time,just on one name.
Even with computers,those that got into it in the early days made bank on the sale of the already established individual products,parts and such.
Look at even locally there the guy became a billionaire off of all the other people that lost their rear ends.
Bit coin is the really strange one .
Rivian does better "per car" than Lucid does though. Lucid looses $338,000 on every car they sell. Of course they're sold far fewer cars than Rivian, so Rivian still holds the crown for biggest losses. I think as of last year it was $19 Billion they've lost so far?
There's 2 on my street, and I presume the drivers were smart enough to not purchase them. Depreciation on EV's is double that of ICE cars, so financially they're a horrible idea.
That’s why a majority of countries rolled back their 2030 goals,you cannot print enough money fast enough to achieve that.
They are really in their horse and buggy days,by the time they become mainstream a 2024 EV will be like a model A in comparison and they will do it like everything else with planned obsolescence.
That puts Tesla currently in the IPhone 3 stage.
Computers were different,their technology advanced because the government went all in to advance the space program,everything after that became an added bonus.
Without the government backing EVs are,out of charge.
To each his own. That front end is gruesome to me. And how much are they, 100 grand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket