Comparing Midtown to Palmer Park/Sherwood Forest/University Commons

Hi everybody, I read the recent article/thread about Midtown and how its really comeback with life for WSU students [[like me for example 22yrs old next month) and Midtown residents alike. I am joyous for the area and whats coming to it in the near future, but what about the area where UofD Mercy is? is it on the right path like Midtown? I love the area for its architecture but why isnt it up to par as Midtown [[like more bars, restaurants, and neighborhood security more often) Midtown has proximity to Downtown and New Center but University Commons/Palmer Park area is a short distance to Ferndale and RO. Can anyone tell me How the two compare; and how much more longer does that area have to be the next Midtown?

-Thanks-

If you don't mind strangers that wave to you and smile when you're walking down the street or riding your bike, move to University/Sherwood/Green Acres.

Now, we can make this fun.

If you don't mind strangers who......[[insert clever DYes humor here)....... then move to Midtown.

The University District in the greatest sense of the area, all those places will never be what Midtown is. The housing stock and physical context is completely different totally single family in the area surrounding UDM. I would argue that in many ways large areas of residential were always stable around UDM The University District, Sherwood Forest, and the like have been stable middle class areas while much of Midtown went through a rough decline. However, Livernois and select residential neighborhoods think south of McNichols generally, are what truly suffered in this area. Until UDM takes on the neighborhood and becomes a more open campus I don't expect any major changes in the condition of Livernois as a hub for retail and bars and the like.

However I do feel that as a resident near Palmer Park there is huge potential for the area. It is half way between Royal Oak/Ferndale, and Midtown. This whole Uptown area has good structure and in many ways the prices are right if the economy makes a turn for the good things could change very rapidly. Finally in terms of a vision for where UDM students could have the largest impact in living and retail presence if security was not an issue would be the Palmer Park Apartments and McNichols Woodward Corridor, it is the closet set of apartments and is very nicely located in terms of transit by car or bus.

Midtown is a vibrant urban neighborhood. The UDM area is a quiet suburban neighborhood. The two are completely different. Granted, the McNichols corridor has a very strong educational presence. There are a ton of schools, colleges, and universities along that corridor.

One thing that I think would be a good idea would be to have a streetcar line along the McNichols/Outer Drive corridor from Woodward Ave to Old Redford. The total length of the line would be about 8 miles, with 15 stops. It would be an offshoot of the Woodward LRT/streetcar and sort of be a connector between a possible future Grand River LRT/streetcar and the Woodward LRT/streetcar. The stations would mostly be around 1/2 mile apart.

These are the stations I would build:
1. Woodward Ave/Palmer Park Apts
2. Hamilton Rd/Detroit Golf Club
3. Linwood Ave
4. Livernois Ave/University of Detroit-Mercy
5. Greenlawn St/Marygrove College East
6. Wyoming St/Marygrove College West
7. Meyers Rd/Lewis College of Business
[[at this point it turns north along the Lodge FWY and then west along Outer Dr)
8. Schaefer Hwy/Sanai Grace Hospital
9. Hubbell St/Renaissance High School
10. Greenfield Rd
11. Lindsay St/Wayne State University/Redford Academy/Fellowship Chapel
12. Faust Ave/Wayne County Community College
[[At this point Outer Drive turns southward towards McNichols where the streetcar turns west)
13. McNichols Rd
14. Trinity St/Redford High School
[[at this point it turns northwestward onto Grand River Ave)
15. Lahser Rd/Old Redford

I had an idea of a McNichols spur of the Woodward line. But my idea was to take it up the Lodge to Southfield business districts. Here are my station locations:

[[from McNichols/Palmer Park station)
Hamilton Ave [[Palmer Park/Palmer Woods)
Livernois Ave [[University of Detroit-Mercy)
Wyoming Ave [[Marygrove College
Meyers [[Lewis College of Business, Sinai-Grace Hospital))
7 Mile
Northland [[8 Mile Rd/Greenfield)
9 Mile
Evergreen/10 Mile [[Southfield Civic Center, Lawrence Tech University)
Telegraph
Franklin

I think this would serve many more people than if the line continued on McNichols. This line will connect Wayne State University [[via Woodward Line) to University of Detroit Mercy, Marygrove College, Lewis College of Business, and Lawrence Tech University. It would connect two of the top office centers in Michigan [[Detroit CBD and Southfield). Plus hundreds of thousands of residents. This would definatly be a popular line if it was built. The construction costs would be very high, but worth it if our region is serious about regional transit.

I love the idea of connecting WCC3 and Renaissance High but they can easily be connected to a McNichols/Lodge Fwy line or a Grand River line with improved feeder busses. I think connecting bigger destinations is more of a priority, such as LTU and Southfield offices.

Also, I think LRT technology with dedicated ROW and traffic signal priority would be better than streetcars.

In my fantasy, I already have a line that runs along 8 Mile and veers northwestward along the Lodge. It starts at Woodward, runs along 8 Mile and turns northwestward onto the Lodge. It then runs along the Lodge until it reaches Civic Center Dr where it veers west. It then curves into a northwestern direction along Franklin Rd where it then merges onto Northwestern Hwy. It runs along Northwestern Hwy until it reaches its terminus at 14 Mile/Orchard Lake Rd. The entire length is about 15 miles with about 28 stations.

Besides connecting the major institutions along the McNichols corridor, the "Old Redford" line is meant to give people in Northwest Detroit a transit connection as well as produce a shortcut between the Grand River line and the Woodward line.

And while I think LRT with a dedicated ROW would be the best option, the stretch of McNichols between Woodward and the Lodge is too narrow to comfortably accomodate LRT. That's why I have the line run along Outer Drive for half the stretch. On Outer Drive [[as well as the portion of McNichols west of Outer Drive) the line can have its own ROW.

If I'm not mistaken, the ROW along Outer Drive between the Lodge and McNichols is about 150 ft, while the ROW along McNichols from Evergreen to Grand River is about 120 ft. Those stretches can easily have dedicated LRT lanes. On the other hand, the stretch of McNichols between Woodward and Wyoming is only about 65 ft. The LRT alone generally needs a 30-45 ft ROW.

I guess it would be possible to "squeeze" it in. For example, if you have a 4 ft sidewalk, a 2.5 ft station platform, an 11.5 ft LRT row, a 10 ft traffic lane lane, a 9 ft turning lane, a 10 ft traffic lane, an 11.5 ft traffic lane, a 2.5 ft station platform, and a 4 ft sidewalk, you'd have a grand total of 65 feet. Granted, I'm sure that stretch would be notoriously bad for "sideswipes" and "fender benders". The speed limit would definitely have to be 25 MPH. I doubt a study would recommend the LRT having it's own dedicated ROW there.

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Originally Posted by hudkina

The speed limit would definitely have to be 25 MPH.

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I'm pretty sure the speed limit is already 25 on 6 Mile west of Livernois.

I know but people often really go 35 or higher. They would have to put in more lights and really enforce the speed along that stretch.

I'd love to see that area much bigger houses/mansions become something of frat houses. Though i think it wouldnt mix well being how residential it is with families. For some reason i can see the area being a strong hub if its done right. I hope so

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Originally Posted by Umbound

I'd love to see that area much bigger houses/mansions become something of frat houses. Though i think it wouldnt mix well being how residential it is with families. For some reason i can see the area being a strong hub if its done right. I hope so

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You are talking about a relatively small commuter school without much demand for this. U of D has maybe 10 or 11 "Greek" organizations in total. This includes fraternities, black fraternities [[yes, they are considered different), sororities, and academic/service fraternities. Of those, 6 or 7 have houses and at least 4 of those are on a two block stretch of Fairfield. At least two are on the north side of McNichols near Gesu school. When I went there, it was considered a minor miracle that there were still enough resident students to renovate and re-open Shipple Hall. I would consider WSU already a strong hub for the resident trend [[thanks largely to Irvin Reid, who remains in the background there), and hope that U of D becomes more like the niche with a safe and strong "sub-urban" surrounding area.

That being said, it would be nice to see U of D basketball draw the crowd numbers it should, and for Callahan to host concerts again as it once did before my time.

I love how everyone is talking about something the have no idea about. I am a University of Detroit Mercy student, and live on campus in Shiple Hall. Our student resident population is around 750 students, last year we maxed out with around 800 students. For those of you that say that seem to be experts on the safety of an area of a city they don't even live in, I hear gunshots nearly every night. Yesterday 6 in a procession. If it wasn't for the fence that surrounds the campus, I don't think anyone would live on campus. Safety is just too big of a concern. There was an attempted robbery just this past Saturday right by the dorms. University District will not become a viable comparison to Midtown until I feel safe enough to cross Livernois by myself. And BTW hudkina & bearinabox McNichols w. of Liv. is 25 but no one goes below 35-40, it's just to dicey of a stretch, you kind of just want to get thru it.

DetroitTitan I would argue that you don't really know either. Drops in residents at UDM has alot less to do with safety than bad residential conditions over the last four years, between loss of heat in Holden one year, and the recurrent issues with bed bugs in the Quads many students have not returned to live on campus. Resident issues have largely been compounded by the economy as well, as a commuter school if people live close enough to commute from their parents home they have been doing so to save money. Just four years ago there were 900 residents.

Furthermore, the area does have crime issues, it is not nearly as bad as you make it sound. Guessing from your post you have not taken the time to get to know where you live out side of the fence. Although the area has issues during the day it is perfectly safe to walk around, or ride a bike. At night I would be much more cautious but you don't have to live in fear of your life. Also issues could be taken care of simply through greater cooperation between the Detroit Police, and a complete make over of the Universities Department of Public Safety, which used to be an actual police department but they lost their status, would have a huge effect on the area. Generally the task of making the area more stable is not nearly as daunting as one may think.

6nois, I'm not sure how the campus held 900 students, considering the 800 last year was a strain on the system with three students to a room. Holden is definitely an issue or as residents call it "Colden." I would not walk down the street nor do any students on campus. I did not mean to insinuate that the crime has had any effect on the decrease in residents this year, the University increased their tuition which has been marked as the main cause of the decrease in population
The few times I have heard of people walking is en masse. I do consider myself a resident of the area considering I do most of my shopping along Livernois [[eg. CVS, Mike's). I love the city and the area, it would just be nice if I could walk around.

IMO, for the University District to see the renaissance that Midtown has experienced, the University of Detroit Mercy would need a sizable growth in campus population and that would require new dormitory facilities. Part of Mercy's appeal too is its small size and if not handled correctly that growth would tarnish the school's key draw. [[Not to mention there is no open land for new dorms, it would require the demo. of a parking lot which then would require a parking structure, more cost). I think commercial, retail development [[like around Wayne State) across from campus on Livernois aimed for college students would significantly enhance the school's appeal and give residents something to do.

The reason the University District/Sherwood Forest/Palmer Woods area[[the U-D area from this point on) will never rival Midtown is because it is mostly residential, with single family homes dominating the area. Even McNicols and Seven Mile east of Livernois and west of Woodward are majority residential. Anywhere else it the city, McNichols and Seven Mile are the main retail/commercial areas for residents living along them. Why the city fathers decided not to build commercial space along these streets between Livernois and Woodward is beyond me? I guess they figured that if you could afford to live in this area, you could afford to have a car to drive you to the nearest commerical area. Personally, I think that one of the reasons that the Avenue of Fashion doesn't do well is because access from the residential area is limited, therefore unwalkable. The streets parallel Livernois instead of running in to it. However, this would not be as issue if the retail/commercial was on the mile roads in this area. Ever notice that the main streets on the west side that head north and south are mostly residential-apartments or duplexes. Livernois is an aberration. It too should have more residential units with the retail on the mile and half-mile roads. Interesting how Livernois does become residential south of Michigan.Midtown has many more apartments than the U-D area and clearly fewer single family homes. When you compare these two you're really comparing apples to oranges. A Midtown vs. New Center would be a better comparison.

"I would not walk down the street nor do any students on campus"

I walk down the street and I ride my bike so that is not true. I also use to take the bus at least twice a day to and from campus.

As for the 900 students that was the number of residents my freshman year.

The area between Woodward and Livernois on Seven Mile is residential except for two lots on Seven mile on the corner of Livernois because when Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest, University District was plated in 1915 and planned in 1910, it was Greenfield Township not Detroit. Seven mile was 66 feet wide and called Lincoln Highway. The whole area was a big forest.
The Avenue of Fashion was always walkable from Sherwood, Palmer and University district, it thrived nicely until the 1970's.

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Originally Posted by 6nois

"I would not walk down the street nor do any students on campus"

I walk down the street and I ride my bike so that is not true. I also use to take the bus at least twice a day to and from campus.

As for the 900 students that was the number of residents my freshman year.

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It has been 13 years since my last year living as a student in that neighborhood off campus. There were about 900 students living on campus in the late 1990s, after Shiple reopened.

The neighborhood in all directions except north was relatively "bad," but there wasn't much for students outside of the beer stores willing to sell to underage white kids and a couple of food joints. Perhaps someone on this forum will have more knowledge of this, but we were told that south of Puritan had been a "dividing line" since the 1950s.

We did almost all of our shopping 3 miles up Livernois - at the Ferndale Foodland [[is it still Foodland?), and most of our Taco Bell meals came from that area also [[as opposed to Livernois/Davidson).

We often went to bed hearing gunshots...however, it doesn't take long to realize the difference between a distant gunshot and one nearby, and there weren't many nearby. Besides, almost all of the crimes we were aware of or observed around U of D [[for the 3 years I lived in the neighborhood) occurred during the summer or early fall. We never really felt safe, never really felt in imminent danger, either. Of course at 19-20-21, we were invincible.

The campus police [[not the student "public safety officers") are or at least were Detroit cops. They kept the area well protected, made somewhat easy by a fenced in 70 acre campus. There were two carjackings of students that I was aware of, and both were at night in the Wyoming/Puritan area begging the question as to what students were doing there to begin with. One student was shot [[twice by the same bullet...richochet...interesting story) while being robbed [[this was during the summer) and a rash of robbings that occurred one fall involving students coming back from parties at the Sig Ep or Theta Tau houses. There were many "petty crimes" [[mostly theft), but a bum coming into the yard to steal empty cans hardly made the immediate area dangerous.

Okay, all I am saying is the large majority of UDM students do not leave campus unless they are in a car. I admire you, 6nois, for doing otherwise, but compared to Wayne's Midtown students, Mercy students just don't walk or bike. I am not saying that it's dangerous or not, just that students are uncomfortable walking Livernois Ave. As for the resident population, in the 1990s there must have been additional dorms, I've heard some academic buildings have been converted from dorms, but with the present arrangements there would not be enough space for over 850 students [[like I said last year 850 students strained maxed the buildings).

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Originally Posted by DetroitTitan

Okay, all I am saying is the large majority of UDM students do not leave campus unless they are in a car. I admire you, 6nois, for doing otherwise, but compared to Wayne's Midtown students, Mercy students just don't walk or bike. I am not saying that it's dangerous or not, just that students are uncomfortable walking Livernois Ave. As for the resident population, in the 1990s there must have been additional dorms, I've heard some academic buildings have been converted from dorms, but with the present arrangements there would not be enough space for over 850 students [[like I said last year 850 students strained maxed the buildings).

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Titan - you are right, according to U of D's website the campus houses 800 students. However, I specifically recall being told there were over 900...wonder if they were including students living in the immediate area around campus, or - much more likely - if they were including what residents may have been on the Outer Drive campus [[I think there was one or two residence halls there from the Mercy days). Obviously since then Outer Drive is no longer UDM.