Poll: Mideast Arabs think very highly of Obama

[ddaydetroit]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090510/pl_mcclatchy/3230489
sounds like a great strategy if everyone dislikes Us you'll never win the war on terrorism. I like the Idea winning the hearts and minds of the people middle east something George Bush was totally clueless on.
ccbatson I can imagine your spin on this.

[Mikeg]

sounds like a great strategy if everyone dislikes Us you'll never win the war on terrorism. I like the Idea winning the hearts and minds of the people middle east something George Bush was totally clueless on.Speaking of clueless, the article makes it very clear that this poll only speaks to his popularity as a person. The article also makes it clear that Obama's "overtures to the Middle East" have not had a similar impact on improving their views of the United States of America:


......his overtures to the Middle East are paying off in positive feelings towards him from Arab peoples that far outpace the region's critical view of the United States itself......Winning the hearts and minds of the people on the Arab street will not translate into a change of policies by their undemocratically selected leaders.

[firstandten]

Point is you have to start somewhere. Our current way of dealing with the mideast is not getting us anywhere. The days of dicatating our way of life to them is over. We may never get to the point where they love us we just don't want to give them reasons to hate us so much that they will plot against us over and over again.

[gibran]

Any hatred towards the US is based inpart on policies and threats to perceived ways of life..wipped up by Governments and Regional Bias...The Arab street at one time saw America as a Model and as a balance between Colonial rule...by reaching out to Arabs we can regain our standing if we work with all parties over there and find peaceful solutions to age old conflicts...this is a good move for everyone of the middle-east...every one

[gibran]

clarifcation: Arab Governments ...

[Detroitej72]

Unfortunately the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood is not feeling all too happy with Pres. Obama. They released a statement Saturday that Obama is continuing the Zionist's strategy and the failed policies of Bush against the Muslim world.

[gibran]

Muslim Brotherhod has been around since th e1920's and has followed a radical conservative agenda, and if not for corruption and poverty in Egypt they would loose their targeted audiance..but really no different that the extremist in any country..including the radical nationalists in Israel...these groups are true barriers to a peaceful exchange in the region..which so many desperately desire...
if one were to be honest and realistic..you would see the resemblence in many ( not all ) of these extreme conservative moments and their lack of tolerance and respect for anyone that does not lock step support their views...extremists in all areas have a tendency to capture the visual imagery of the culture..but are often a result of fear politics and poverty...

[Detroitej72]

Muslim Brotherhod has been around since th e1920's and has followed a radical conservative agenda, and if not for corruption and poverty in Egypt they would loose their targeted audiance..but really no different that the extremist in any country..including the radical nationalists in Israel...these groups are true barriers to a peaceful exchange in the region..which so many desperately desire...
if one were to be honest and realistic..you would see the resemblence in many ( not all ) of these extreme conservative moments and their lack of tolerance and respect for anyone that does not lock step support their views...extremists in all areas have a tendency to capture the visual imagery of the culture..but are often a result of fear politics and poverty...

All too true. I would add to that the extremists in this country as well, such as Operation Rescue's bombing of abortion clinics, the militia movement fostering and nurturing tools like Timmy McVie, white supremacists, and Peta destroying medical labs and fur warehouses.

They all prey upon the disenfranchised, the ignorant and those who feel powerless in the world.

[gibran]

yep...scary isnt it

[ccbatson]

These arab nations are not stupid enough to forego an opportunity to take advantage of weakness. Time will tell.

[gibran]

cc what are "those scary" Arab nations going to do with that scary little thing called diplomacy and peace,,exploit our weakness by what? Attacking America..when they and we are reaching out at the same time?

[rb336]

Peta destroying medical labs and fur warehouses..

while I am no fan of PETA, the above statement is flat-out libelous

[rb336]

It would have been more correct to say that ALF/ELF have committed these acts and that they may or may not have been supported by PETA. Since there is enough evidence to link these groups, however, I would not call the claim "libelous" either.

it is patently false and meant to injure the reputation of the organization, ergo it is definitively libelous

[ccbatson]

Diplomacy with the exact opposite alterior motive used as a tool to gain appeasement while advancing nuclear weapon aspirations and attacking our ally (Israel) via terrorist proxies while Obama looks the other way is VERY DANGEROUS.

[Detroit Stylin]

Diplomacy with the exact opposite alterior motive used as a tool to gain appeasement while advancing nuclear weapon aspirations and attacking our ally (Israel) via terrorist proxies while Obama looks the other way is VERY DANGEROUS.


Blah blah blah blah......blablablabla....

[Detroitej72]

It would have been more correct to say that ALF/ELF have committed these acts and that they may or may not have been supported by PETA. Since there is enough evidence to link these groups, however, I would not call the claim "libelous" either.

Thanks Slim for the clarification, I mistyped, and should have said ALF/ELF.

[gibran]

so by cc'c above assessment negotiating a peaceful resolution is giving into the terrorists ...or by developing a fair and balanced plan for peace in Israel is a threat to it's security...unlike the last thirty years as a model...boy it has been a great time in the old town tonight...I would welcome a real peace for all peoples over there...and maybe some radicals who don't want peace for land are frightened...on both sides of the WALL...seems like they found common ground ...afterall

[ccbatson]

Look at the basic tenets of all of the peace proposals...first, Palestinians renounce terrorists, and recognize Israel as a sovereign nation....THEY WILL NOT DO EVEN THAT!!

Try again.

[Detroitej72]

Look at the basic tenets of all of the peace proposals...first, Palestinians renounce terrorists, and recognize Israel as a sovereign nation....THEY WILL NOT DO EVEN THAT!!

Try again.

I have to agree with Bats on this one. Why did Arafat walk away from the peace deal with Israel when he was promised a Palestinian State?

[gibran]

Historians have proven that peace propsoal suicidal for Arafat ( no right of return, economic development and water rights controlled by Israel, no resoluation on Jerusalem and a few other little details ..hell even Ehus Barak own negoaited said if it was offered to him he would ahve resfused it) ... not to mentiom that Israel needs to stop building settlements and recognize the Palestinians right to a free and continous state without the interference of other countries...see it is really a two sided issue...thatis why we need an honest broker to ensure Israel's rights as well as the other people's (yes they are people too)

[Atwater]

Gibran, I think you have some facts wrong.. there was resolution for Jerusalem in the 2000 deal that Arafat walked away from. Barak's first name is Ehud, not 'Ehus', and where did he say even he would have refused it? Huh? That makes no sense, as he was a proponent of it. Can you site a source?

Anyway, President Clinton, the host and a third-party to the talks, placed the blame squarely on Arafat.

Now while I don't think Wikipedia is always reliable, this section appears to be very well sourced and informative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit#Reasons_for_impasse

[rb336]

considering that the "source" of the comments about how much israel was giving was an israeli...

[ddaydetroit]

Well this thread sure got hijacked by the haters! Am I wrong to think its ok for Arabs to have a more positive attitude towards the president and America ?
I haven't heard Obama talk about giving anything up to anyone in the Middle east yet.
Yes he does have a speech coming up in Egypt but its a speech and isn't the first part of peace open communications? should he not be talking with countries like Egypt Jordan ?
I'm just amazed by the hate in this forum by an article of Arabss with a more positive attitude towards us when we haven't even gave up or promised anything yet.
I see things like most people I see a huge problem with Iran, the Palestine state and how many Arabs view Israel. But how all Arabs and are put into one category by a couple of people in this thread amazes me.

[gibran]

First of all thank you for recognizing my typo's in spelling...I know how to spell Ehud and I didn't attribute the qoute to him but one of his negotiators..( i will find the source.. even though I have posted it many times in the other forum) ..generally all my sources are straight out of books by Jewish intelectuals who want and view the coflict from a very humanitaran perspective. Th ereality is camp David proposals would have left Palestine dependent on Israel for many of their basic right (water and travel)..as witnessed by the current conditions that a majority of the people are being held captive by their respective governments over there...Israeli's and Palestinians...

A two state solution that is viable for both an dsecure for both is the only answer period..anything short would be unacceptable...itwill come when the rhetoric stops and the recognition of each as equal people begins....

but here are quotes from Ehud;
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.


http://gush-shalom.org/archives/pundak.doc

[ccbatson]

Right of return? To where? If peace were struck, the occupied territories would no longer need to be occupied, and the Palestinians would stay there...which is where they were in the first place (if not Jordan or Egypt)...not in Israel proper.

[Atwater]

Gibran, I believe you quote out of books that were written by left-wing Jewish intellectuals. It must be said, though, that the kind of books you refer to having read are often slanted and bias; they're hardly written from a neutral point of view. They're written by left-wingers from a left-wing slant, and I think you know that. I'm not saying that right-wing propoganda should be used any more than left-wing propoganda; I think that the best way to debate issues like this is to trust the words of people both sides agree were more neutral and centrist in their ideology- which is why I cited President Clinton. Bill Clinton wasn't right-wing or left-wing, and he supported a Palestinian state that would be viable and a Jewish state that would be safe. His words on what happened are worth more than most anyone else's.

[rb336]

Right of return? To where?

to the land the israelies stole from them. certainly YOU should understand that principal. talk about your double standards

[gibran]

Let's pretend for a moment:

That both sides finally recognized each other as "human"...and as equals....that would mean that they share equally resources, trade, water, movement, education, and basic human-rights...they equally could vote. travel and be in control of their own destiny. This would mean that families that out grow their homes would be able to build new ones equally...

Now in this "recognition: usually each other would have "equal" opportunity.

To extend "social justice" which you have to have a democracy; it would mean they both would have to respect each others rights to exist...

now generally in order to get there you have to have equal power...or control...so to ask one group to exercise this without "equality"..well that doesn't make much sense unless these rights are guaranteed.

So if Israel and Palestine were to exist collectively or co-exist...the power brokers needs to make concessions....in order for social justice both side will have to become equal..anything short will result in prolonged conflict...

Historically, speaking Israel has the right of return for all their citizens or descendants Palestine would like the same...Israel controls water resources and travel...Palestinians would like the same...Israel control building in the West bank and Israel proper,..you get the point..they have power and control..so it would be expected to resume what under international laws is a conquering power needs to extend to it's citizens a realistic peace..We did it with Japan and Germany.

Militarily speaking, Israel has won it's wars...(we can debate points who started what.til we are blue in the face) but the reality is that they won...so they have control...the most recent resulted in much (we wont go into that)..but the results were a ceasefire and less rockets...there hasn't been any suicide murders in a while...yet the occupation and the conditions that breed "hopelessness" continues. No travel. resources, check-points and settlement building(which Israel continues to do unabated since the 1980s' despite the USA and world pressure to stop)...so who has power..

Israel has bad neighbors in the area...and they love to exploit the Palestinians for their own gains..it is the recruitment poster for every Jihadist...so what cant be won by superior military...needs to be won by politics...and diplomacy (something their current leadership lacks)

Biblical, this is the promised land of Moses and all of the Prophets since him...therefore after wandering for forty years or so..all of our religious ancestors came to a place where there were tribes (Semites and gentiles, Canaanites etc) and conquered and established a Kingdom...while short in nature..an ever lasting foundation for all of our great religions..so with respect they share a heritage and "a" level of ties to the land..like all of us to our homelands...However, if you extend the Bible to the New Testament ....Christians got their claim..since many were early Jews as well as the founder of Christianity...They were expected to continue practicing under Jewish Laws initially until it expanded to include gentiles...then Muslims who were there also and have biblical ties to Abraham..you get the picture..all share a similar claim and background..so why cant they share the land?

but back to reality...we will never get to who started what, whose fault, who the "right" scholars, are they Jewish enough if they are critical of Israel (which i find a crock and a deception of free speech)...Did Clinton in an effort to cover his failures blame the easy scape goat...did the Palestinians give enough security in return to Israel..etc..we can debate the points forever .and those in the middle like myself who believe in the human rights/social justice model for both sides..who try to find common ground and assign equal blame get.put down....by the apologists for Palestine and Israel depending on what side of the "wall" you fall on...when what should be offered instead of the status quo is real ideals

I think that is why the Arab Street ( thread tie in ;)) sees Obama as a new opportunity and lets pray they see something new, and hopefully he wont get the AIPAC treatment...and bring peace to Israel and create a Palestine that is viable...where children are viewed with value on both side of the "wall" and the children have a future devoid of the insanity of a "real estate" deal gone bad...

The Jewish people suffered greatly throughout history,,,they have needed a place to be safe..we know all to well what ANTISEMITISM leads to ..they should and never fear anything as horrible as (genocide or ethnic cleansing) nor should they live in fear of a nuclear bomb from Iran...so we must insist that anything is with these precepts in mind...

however, for the Palestinians they were living in the region too..despite revisionists racist historians,,,750,000 approx were displaced (we can debate how and why)...but they did not move to Gaza willingly....they didn't give up their homes and carry their keys willing..they became the wanders...they became left off the bus by their own language speakers, the world and by the very groups that could understand oppression.

They became the dog (a term used on Palestinians) with an owner who boxed/caged them in...and when those who were not broken began to bite they were demonized...and resorted to Horrible measures of resistance and terror..those who are brave enough to see a different approach on both sides of the equation are put down by both sides as weak, unrealistic, and giving their homelands away...

but in reality it is the Palestinians and Israelis who fight for peace are the real HEROS..and have the courage..it is easy to send a young bomber to their death or hide behind a tank or sniper ..but true courage is the ISraeli soldiers who stand up and create "combatants for peace" with the ex-terrorists...or thos who engage in equality for all doctrine...

so boith sides needs to recognize each others rights to exist..stop the inflamatory rhetoric and stop the empty gestures to appease public perception...get real and adapt a peace conference that should be on going and real until it is resolved..that takes both powers in control, but it also takes the power that controls too.

salem and shalom for all peiple ..that would solve this..hell they even like the same foods...ummmm that could be a start..joint restuarants

[gibran]

Uri Savir, Uzi Mahnaimi, Thomas friedman...etal..leftist? I see your point on may books i have researched..Chomsky, Oz, Green and Finkelstein etal..but look at Cater's and Bres's books.. as well... you are right ringers are as extreme as the left..however the "right" wongers like Desherwitz are the one's that have media play ..and that is sad...we all should read at least forty books on the subject from all perspectives including the Palestinians..but the middle of the road books are getting harder to find...most major book stores do not carry the volumes of interesting and hopeful books...they seem to have one or two liberal and many right wing..you really have to research where to find a balance...

[ccbatson]

Rb...horrible attempt at taking things out of context. Beyond what you quoted from me, I went on to address the issue of the occupied territories....you chose to pretend that I did not, and that I am incorrect on that front. Given that it is clear that I am not incorrect, rather than refute what I said, you simply pretend that it wasn't explained.

[jams]

not in Israel proper.

Yeppers, prior to 1948 those lands were completely devoid of any human occupation. those buildings grew as dandelions do.

Despite your pathetic attempts to rewrite history, there are two sides to this issue and no easy answers.

[Detroit Stylin]

Rb...horrible attempt at taking things out of context. Beyond what you quoted from me, I went on to address the issue of the occupied territories....you chose to pretend that I did not, and that I am incorrect on that front. Given that it is clear that I am not incorrect, rather than refute what I said, you simply pretend that it wasn't explained.



^^^^^ That made absolutely ZERO, sense......

[ccbatson]

TO YOU maybe stylin.

Before 1948?? You mean before Israel established itself as a sovereign nation?? So?? Prior to the American revolution, we were a colony of Britain...the principles don't apply equally before and after the transition.

[d.mcc]

*GENERIC RESPONSE TO CC POST*

ccbatson, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[ccbatson]

Generic response=lazy, unthinking, and in denial....no surprise to me.