Please lend me 200 bucks......

[barnesfoto]

http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/83/microloans.html

[ccbatson]

Not a bad concept by design. Getting some return on investment raises it above the level of charity. Why is that a good thing? Dignity for the beneficiaries... very, very important.

[ccbatson]

Give a man a fish, or teach a man to fish...therein lies the issue of dignity in poverty (or lack thereof).

[ccbatson]

Actually, you make a good point...It should not be the responsibility of government, or anyone other than the individual themselves, to teach a person to fish...they must take it upon themselves to better themselves.

[Detroitej72]

Actually, you make a good point...It should not be the responsibility of government, or anyone other than the individual themselves, to teach a person to fish...they must take it upon themselves to better themselves.

Or you could be a man for others, and take the self-less approach and help someone who is disadvantaged. But I guess that is not the conservative mantra... they feel anyone who is unemployed must be lazy and a bum. Thats compassionate conservatism for you.

[rb336]

Or in your case, neither teach them to fish nor give them a fish - and then castigate them for their poverty.

but before you do that, be sure to arrest them because all the rivers and lakes and streams are now privately owned, but if they do manage to catch fish, deny them medical treatment for heavy metal poisoning which they incurred because there are no restrictions on the crap the private owners can pump into their private lakes, rivers, etc.

[ccbatson]

Correction...legally catch fish...not steal them. Happy now?

[ronaldj]

Don't forget to tax the fish even if you bought a license. On the other hand, the fish probably isn't carrying cash.

[Flanders]

Actually, you make a good point...It should not be the responsibility of government, or anyone other than the individual themselves, to teach a person to fish...they must take it upon themselves to better themselves.

Of course there are those individuals who are born with or acquire physical and/or mental disabilities/illnesses that limit, inhibit or prevent their ability to better themselves, and fortunately there are many less selfish people in the US who are willing to ensure that these people receive assistance from our government through their votes and from themselves without expecting to personally gain anything (money) in return for doing so, unlike you.

[ccbatson]

Yes, that is true, less than .01% (35K) of the population of working age are truly disabled and need support (government support). Now, what about the other 20-30 million?

[Detroitej72]

Some are working.

Some are desperately seeking work.

Some are just lazy.

[rb336]

waiting for some convoluted excuse from bats for denying the facts...

[East Detroit]

"The rational thing would be to euthanize your dear Mother, instead of wasting money on keeping her alive. That is my professional opinion. Please pay your bill in full on the way out, thank you."

[Flanders]

Yes, that is true, less than .01% (35K) of the population of working age are truly disabled and need support (government support). Now, what about the other 20-30 million?

Link?

Oh wait, how could I forget, only liberal socialists have to back their shit up with links to reputable and unbiased sources...:rolleyes:

In Batsonia. only objectivists are permitted to post using only compelling arguments and rational thought, in this instance, making links to statistical references unnecessary.

Based on your complete lack of empathy for anyone that could be considered less fortunate that you are, I would venture a guess that only those that have been diagnosed with terminal illnesses AND have become completely incapacitated as a result, (35K) would qualify in your opinion as being sufficiently disabled for government support.

[ccbatson]

Real numbers Flanders. Difficult to find because of the high number of illegitimate claims. Those in the industry will confirm this as the real number. Notice the very specific language I used in describing it also.

[jams]

...yet, no documentation other than "Those in the industry", yeppers, that proves it must be true.

[mjs]

I might need to copy that into my profile as my favorite quote.

[Flanders]

Real numbers Flanders. Difficult to find because of the high number of illegitimate claims. Those in the industry will confirm this as the real number. Notice the very specific language I used in describing it also.

"Those in the industry" (compelling argument)

"Very specific language" (rational thought)

So in conclusion, you are stating that over 99% of those who applied for disability and were approved, who had to not only meet the strict criteria and definitions required by the SS administration but ALSO had to supply all copies of medical documentation, fill out a 50+ page application, (online or in paper form) and include their complete treatment history and all of their medications/prescriptions, along with their physician(s) providing statement(s) that fully supported their claim, were FRAUDULENTLY applying for benefits that they were NOT entitled to??

So what would YOU suggest could be done by our government to recover the funds that have already been distributed to these guilty criminals, (including their complicit physicians) :mad: and what type(s) of punishment(s) would you recommend?

[rb336]

Flanders gets the QED award

[ccbatson]

Easy...privatize the industry putting it in the hands of a private enterprise with an incentive to root out fraud.

[gibran]

cc where did you get those numbers ...when most of the Journals of Rehabilitation indentify 40-50 million people as having a disability..and thier unemployment rate ranges almost two to three times as high as their co-inhabitants of our nation... these numbers are confirmed in the 911 (not taht one) data base...

Many of these people want o work but in tough economic times it is even more difficult fo rthem to get an opportunity due to many variables...

I guess it is hard to pull yourself up by your bootstsraps as most eurocentric conservatives would like to see when a) you have no boots and in some cases b) you dont have the physical or cognitive ability to do so...but yet these people would love to follow the American Dream, with the right accommodations...

[gibran]

The percentage of American adults reporting disabilities increased during the 1990s -- a trend likely to continue at even higher rates. Here are some findings from the Institute of Medicine's recent report:

An estimated one in seven Americans is now considered disabled.
In the next 30 years, this number will increase significantly as baby boomers enter late life.
Obesity rates among younger Americans and children likely will lead to further disability because of downstream illnesses.


here is a qoute from your AMA.... 1/7 ummm care to do the math

[ccbatson]

I know the system very well...my number represents the truly disabled, not those that are "granted" SSI.

[ccbatson]

Ohh...about 10 percent of the official number. Ever see a surveillance video for some of these sham disabled people? Ever review the cases of a plaintiff attorney and know first hand the coaching and cherry picking of "medical experts" that they use (and pay a fortune too for the privilege of using their credentials fraudulently)? It will curl your hair, I promise you.

[gibran]

"trully disabled"...ahhh spoken with what criteria?

Persons with disabilities are entitled to exercise their civil, political, social, economic and cultural rights on an equal basis with others. Disability "summarizes a great number of different functional limitations occurring in any population in any country of the world. People may be disabled by physical, intellectual or sensory impairment, medical conditions or mental illness. Such impairments, conditions or illnesses may be permanent or transitory in nature." (Standard Rules on the Equalization of Opportunities for Persons with Disabilities). Different expressions are used when referring to persons with disabilities. For example, the term "differently-abled persons" indicates that disability is not perceived as a deviation from the norm. The term "disabled persons" might be misinterpreted to imply that the ability of the individual to function as a person has been disabled. This guide uses the term "persons with disabilities", which is consistent with the language used by the United Nations (UN).

The UN estimates that there are 500 million persons with disabilities in the world today. This number is increasing every year due to factors such as war and destruction, unhealthy living conditions, or the absence of knowledge about disability, its causes, prevention and treatment.

The majority of persons with disabilities live in less developed countries where people lack access to essential services such as health care. Moreover, there exists a clear relationship between poverty and disability. The risk of impairment is greater for a family that lives in poverty, while and at the same time, a disabled family member places higher demands on the family's resources.

Among persons with disabilities, the following form particularly vulnerable groups that face discrimination based on two grounds: women, children, elders, victims of torture, refugees and displaced persons, and migrant workers. For instance, women with a disability are discriminated against because of their gender and also because of their disability. UN and WHO

[ccbatson]

There are objective criteria. However, liberal government types don't believe in absolutes, and therefore don't have a grasp of reality and rational thought. So, all bets are off when these inmates are running the asylum.

[gibran]

Ohh...about 10 percent of the official number. Ever see a surveillance video for some of these sham disabled people? Ever review the cases of a plaintiff attorney and know first hand the coaching and cherry picking of "medical experts" that they use (and pay a fortune too for the privilege of using their credentials fraudulently)? It will curl your hair, I promise you.


yes; I have seen about three or four in my 20 years of expert witness experience....compared to the hundreds of legimate cases...umm yep i see...they are very interesting too...but in reality most are real people who just got hurt and want a fair deal...and are scared and trying to navigate a system that is set up to fail..early intervention with a objective and balanced professional is what they need..not an insurance DOc who can't understand that pain is very subjective and disability management is constructed by society.

;) I know that most people with back injury wake up one day and drive to work ..with the sole intention to injure themselves to ...endure the pain for months while their adjustors, case managers, medical professionals and lawyers figure out which is the best direction for their treatment ...I also know that most people who get injured really love the fear of losing their income waiting for a settlement (if they don't get screwed first...) Iknow that lwyers on both sides at times can overcompensate for their side..but I also know that the system is not "client/patient" centered..or it would treat those injured with respect an ddignity..not as a vast criminal conspriacy as those who profit form their misery would like to present.

yes I have seen the Urban myth of the vast number of fake claims...it is very interesting when you deal with the folks that view injury as an "objectivist" concept... and not see the reality beyond the " myth"

[ccbatson]

Go to the root...talk to "plaintiff advocates" off the record. YOu are living a sheltered life and in denial Gibran. I know of a half dozen such mercenaries in the area responsible for hundreds of cases each every year.

[gibran]

wiki:

Estimates of worldwide and country-wide numbers of individuals with disabilities are problematic. The varying approaches taken to defining disability notwithstanding, demographers agree that the world population of individuals with disabilities is very large. For example, in 2004, the World Health Organization estimated a world population of 6.5 billion people, of those nearly two million were estimated to be moderately or severely disabled. [13] In the United States, Americans with disabilities constitute the third-largest minority (after persons of Hispanic origin and African Americans); all three of those minority groups number in the 30-some millions in America. [13] According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census, as of 2004, there were some 32 million disabled adults (aged 18 or over) in the United States, plus another 5 million children and youth (under age 18). If one were to add impairments -- or limitations that fall short of being disabilities -- Census estimates put the figure at 51 million. [14]

There is also widespread agreement among experts in the field that disability is more common in developing than in developed nations

[gibran]

no CC i am living a real world of compassion for people with disability that is victemized by broad generalizations of those who profit form denials...I have worked "with those Insurance Doc's" really interesting groups.. I have worked with objective and compassinate PM&R doc's really professional....where do you fall?

[ccbatson]

You go to Wiki for waffling opinion on the subject? Whose side are you on? Whether you know it or not, you are clearly strengthening my arguments.

[gibran]

strenghting your side ..you have failed to cite one source..my post cited several......

[gibran]

have you been reading Peter Singer again? ;0

[ccbatson]

I can't name the names...but I assure you, I have seen hundreds of cases of abuse from the previously mentioned half a dozen mercenary Physician "expert" witnesses. Certainly and logically, this can only be a mere fraction of what is out there. look at the size of the industry itself and how many cases these Plaintiff only lawyers handle....proof positive. The referrals to "their Doctors/Therapists/and Diagnosticians" supports and pays these "experts" very handsomely (1 million a year is typical).

[gibran]

yes I agree ..but compared to the legimate claims that are mishandled by Isurance Doc's you see that the system is broke and needs seriuos revamping to bring down costs; and the generalization that people who get hurt on the job just want to scam the system is a generalizatiuon that I have yet to see in the vast numbers of cases that some (adjustors)like to perpetuate. As a perosn in the field for a long time..in short I have seen many more legimate claims than non. I also have a reputation of fair and balanced evaluations in employment matters for both sides of the coin...so without being to self -inflating I am not naive nor ill informed...goes with the experiences that I have as an advocate of a fair system based on early intervention and education for disability management..not waiting at home for something to happen-in pain and unheard. Maybe that's what scare most in the Medical Model..the fear of lose of control..not the realization of individual rights when it come to their health.

[Flanders]

Easy...privatize the industry putting it in the hands of a private enterprise with an incentive to root out fraud.

"Private enterprise" in the form of insurance companies already offer long and short term disability policies that can be purchased by the public for other than on the job injuries and/or illness, such as AFLAC and the like, so SSD and SSI do not need to be privatized. Their definitions of what constitutes disability can be far more liberal than SS, IF a policyholder is willing to pay a substantial monthly premium to obtain them, especially for long-term policies, and if the insured has a history of illness or repetitive injury and/or pre-existing conditions, that could render them disabled for the remainder of their lifetime.

You have frequently posted over and over ad nauseum, that you wish to see all entitlements of any kind eliminated entirely, so it comes as no surprise to me that you would extremely exaggerate the amount of those who are fraudulently receiving disability payments.If it could be proved without a doubt that only .01% are fraudulently obtained, it would not make any difference.

What is very clear is that you resent those with disabilities "sponging" off the government dole, and would like us to believe that they could survive by either relying solely upon charity, or find businesses willing to hire them. Charity alone could not possibly assist all of those additional tens of millions that would be cut loose from eliminating entitlements, and even if charitable donations were to increase or even begin coming from those of your ilk, who would be so thrilled about no longer having deductions taken out of their income that they would joyously, voluntarily, and "tax-deductably" share a tiny fraction of their income with those less fortunate than they are...ya, right!!

Most businesses are looking to CUT their overhead, especially now during a deepening recession, and would be VERY reluctant to hire a person who poses a greater risk of being injured on the job due to their disability(s), missing work more frequently because of them, using the FMLA to avoid discipline for related absenteeism, increasing the costs of premiums paid for business and health insurance, and requiring a more disability-friendly work environment based on their limitations. If a business requires the majority of their employees to do physical labor, there will be few if any jobs available for those who are unfit to perform them. Perhaps larger companies can afford to accommodate them but most medium and small businesses can ill afford to do so for more than one or two if any at all. The last large company that I worked for, eliminated 95% of the "light-duty" jobs that could be performed by those with physical limitations, and were actively pursuing ideas on how to "outsource" them to other companies who could accommodate them. Those "affected" would be paid the same wage as they were prior to being outsourced, however no benefits of ANY kind, such as a pension, company 401K, medical or dental, ect.. would continue or accrue. I have to wonder how the employees would feel if they discovered that one of those outsourced to the company that they work for, could be paid for example, double or triple what they earn for doing the same type of work.

[ccbatson]

Thanks Gibran...I commend your admission and concession.

SSI/SSDI do need to be privatized in order to be reformed. As Social security goes bankrupt, we may see the system correct the problem as there will be no way to fund the benefits.