Hedge Funds Force Chrysler into Bankruptcy

[Detroitej72]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090430/ap_on_bi_ge/us_chrysler

These funds should be outlawed. They buy the debts of the companies, take out insurance from places like AIG against their losses, then let the company fail. Then they collect the insurance money, and write off the original debt as a loss, thus never paying any tax. Meanwhile, the hedge fund owners make millions off the company they drove into the ground, with no reguard for the livelyhoods and careers they destoyed.

Hopefully they wont get a cent from this bankruptcy. They should be illegal, but thanks to Reagan, they were brought back from the dead during his presidency. We're still feeling the effects of his legacy, 11 years later.

[ccbatson]

The same hedge funds that made it possible for the company to function by maliciously extending loans to them in the first place?? The same hedge funds in which millions of regular folks have pension funds invested and rely on a fair return on their investments? The same hedge funds that aim to protect these regular folk/shareholders by expecting to get the larger proportion of return on their invested/loaned money under bankruptcy protection (which Obama wanted to disregard in order for government/TARP lenders, and Union fat cats to go to the front of the line)? Those hedge funds?

[mjs]

First, don't free market principles define a fair return as one where the risk is proportional to the reward? Where's the risk in betting that Chrysler will lose when you're the Judge?

Second, aren't hedge funds so high risk that only accredited investors can purchase them? Assuming for the sake of argument that these pension funds are indeed highly vested in these high risk investments, wouldn't the failure of the fund attributable to the fund's guardian?

Finally, isn't allowing a divesture of risk/reward and an abundance of highly leveraged investments how we got into this problem in the first place?

[mjs]

And no, its not the same hedge funds that made the loans that allowed Chrysler to survive. These hedge funds did not make the loans, they bought them so they could win their bet that Chrysler would be forced into bancruptcy. Its the same as when Enron took power plants of line so they could win the the bet that California would need more power than Enron felt like producing. Do you understand why they didn't want Pete Rose betting against his own team?

[ccbatson]

They hold the loans, whether they issued them, or bought them is irrelevant. The only judge of what who gets in bankruptcy is the rule of law which, if you look into it, gives first tier lean holders first priority at the highest rates...this includes these hedge funds. This is why Obama wanted to avoid bankruptcy...to avoid the rule of law and bump the TARP lean holders and UAW ahead of these private entities where they do not belong.

[ccbatson]

People want to buy quality products at low prices...bankruptcy is a minor consideration especially when it is clear that the nanny state will prop them up regardless.

[mjs]

I agree that the law says that the hedge funds can put people into bankruptcy, however, the discussion is whether that law should be changed. Under that topic, who initiated them is not irrelevant nor is the principle purpose of their purchase.

Simply put, people are arguing that there should be a law that says you can't short a company and cause its collapse especially if it harms other stake holders. A main theme in bankruptcy law is that one group of creditors can't unnecessarily harm the rest. So you saved the hedge fund investors, what about the suppliers and pension recipients?

I think the better solution is to be like the rest of the industrialized world and make the debtor priority be employees, pension beneficiaries, suppliers, and then financiers since financiers are the ones who are best positioned to avoid the company based on liquidity issues and they make their livings on assessing risk.

[ccbatson]

No, that is not the discussion, changing laws to help out your buddies (or yourself) is the definition of political corruption. The discussion is really about that very item...political corruption...on the part of the Obama administration.

[jiminnm]

A main theme in bankruptcy law is that one group of creditors can't unnecessarily harm the rest. So you saved the hedge fund investors, what about the suppliers and pension recipients?

This is simply not true.

There are different classes of creditors in bankruptcy. Secured creditors have the first claims on a debtor's assets after taxes due. In Chrysler's case, this group determined that they would likely receive more in bankruptcy than under the plan the Obama administration attempted to force upon them. Chrysler had to secure that debt because they had exhausted their ability to borrow unsecured debt, weren't selling enough cars to generate the funds necessary to run the business. Had they not issued secured debt, they would have been in bankrupcy a year ago. Generally, secured debt is at a lower interest rate than unsecured debt.

In a chapter 11 reorganization, the court approves continuing payments to employees and suppliers so the bankrupt can continue to operate. I think this has already happened in Chrysler's case.

Unsecured creditors are usually last on the list, getting whatever is leftover after groups have been paid. That is the what the word 'unsecured. means. Creditors loaned those funds on their belief that Chrysler had the ongoing resources to repay them. Chrysler probably paid those lenders a higher interest rate, but the lenders were wrong. The VEBA funds owed to the UAW are unsecured.

If bankruptcy priorities are changed as you suggest, it will be difficult for companies to borrow. The interest rates on borrowed funds will be exceedingly high, because lenders will now want to take the risks involved. That would pretty much stymie any hope of economic growth.

[ccbatson]

Bravo jiminm... Starting to see the liberals and Obama for the underhanded Statists that they are I see. Better late, then never.

[MoparDan]

And it gets even more interesting:
http://www.allpar.com/news/

Obstinate creditors seek secrecy (http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2009/05/obstinate-creditors-seek-secrecy/)
May 4th, 2009
by DaveAdmin
Chrysler creditors who are seeking to avoid the quick sale of the “good assets” are now trying to keep their companies’ names secret, with an attorney claiming that he has received death threats, according to the Detroit News (http://www.detnews.com/article/20090504/AUTO01/905040386/1148/rss25). Perhaps more to the point, some investors have already started pulling their funds from the companies that helped send Chrysler into bankruptcy, with Oppenheimer Funds being the most visible. Michigan’s legislature has decreed that the state will divest from the three lead funds that held out for more cash, angrily claiming that retirees and auto workers were being put ahead of banks and hedge funds. Presumably, if the names of all the creditors now challenging the Treasury plan were exposed, they could also face financial repercussions.

[ccbatson]

Surprised? Obama uses some old fashioned Chicago thug politics to villainize these folks.....darn straight they want to be kept anonymous.

[MoparDan]

Surprised? Obama uses some old fashioned Chicago thug politics to villainize these folks.....darn straight they want to be kept anonymous.

I hope they can bust these Hedge Fund Outlaws to pieces. They short companies into bankruptcy, are limited to a few wealthy investors & are not regulated. In other words, they are driven by pure greed. They can burn in hell. :D

[ccbatson]

Check your own portfolio, and those of your friends and family first. You maybe sending yourself to the gallows.

[MoparDan]

Check your own portfolio, and those of your friends and family first. You maybe sending yourself to the gallows.

No need to worry as none of my holdings are in hedge funds. And if any of my relatives or friends have THAT kind of money to put into one, they get no sympathy from me. The market itself beat the shit out of what I already have. But with a military retirement & another from my employer, I don't drop too much into my 401s to begin with.

[Gistok]

No, that is not the discussion, changing laws to help out your buddies (or yourself) is the definition of political corruption. The discussion is really about that very item...political corruption...on the part of the Obama administration.

Cc.... funny how you call changing laws to help out your buddies as being the definition of political corruption. You didn't mention that when Bush helped out the oilmen and the rich with tax breaks during his tenure...

Or does the definition change to something besides "political corruption" when you support the party in power and you become a "major" beneficiary of the law change??

[Detroitej72]

Surprised? Obama uses some old fashioned Chicago thug politics to villainize these folks.....darn straight they want to be kept anonymous.

They want to be kept anonymous because they know damn well they hoped for a bankruptcy so they could sell of Chrysler's assets for a larger profit. Before you spout off about the liberal media, I heard this on NPR last week.

And yes, they are open only to the elite investors, the same folks who brought you Enron and the like. Average pensions are not allowed into this good old boys club.

If you approve of Enron's shenanagins, then you'll love these clowns.

[jiminnm]

And yes, they are open only to the elite investors, the same folks who brought you Enron and the like. Average pensions are not allowed into this good old boys club.

If you approve of Enron's shenanagins, then you'll love these clowns.

In you effort to demonize hedge fund investors, you ignore well over half of them. Yes, only those individuals who meet SEC net worth requirements can invest, but there are a lot of institutional investors who invest in hedge funds - pension funds, insurance companies, charitable organizations, endowment funds, private banks and more. Many foreign individuals invest also. You need only look at how many of those institutions were hurt by Bernie Madoff to see examples.

By the way, the Enron shenanigans were pretty much caused by company insiders, not hedge funds.

[mjs]

Jiminnm makes some excellent points which requires me to make some clarifications and change my opinion.

Yes, it will be more difficult for companies to borrow and lending will likely be more expensive. However, that occurs any time an extrinsic cost becomes intrinsic. A major function of government is to decide if certain external costs beneficial to a certain group should be internalized to be fair to the rest of society. Safety costs money if you don't have to pay for the injuries. Environmental compliance costs money if you don't have to pay for the damages. Placing workers and pensioners before the secured creditors only costs money if the pensions aren't fully funded or there's a serious risk of missing payroll. Just as banks reduce their rates when small business owners personally guarantee the loans, the banks will reduce their rates if a company shows that they can ensure their pension and payroll promises.

Jiminnm also makes a good point that changing priorities may also push debtors into bankruptcy faster and he forces me to change my view that suppliers should take priority over other debtors. To clarify other points, I had meant to prioritize the secured financiers over the unsecured financiers and I didn't mean that classes can't gain to the detriment of other classes. I meant that specific class members can't gain to the detriment of that class as a whole. What separates hedge funds from other debtors is that they get money from the bankruptcy and from the devaluation of the stock price. All that is needed is to simply forbid a debtor from gaining from the short selling of that stock.

[mjs]

The Enron gang did more than just insider stock trading. They were betting that costs would rise as they manipulated the supply. The comparison is that both were betting on a fixed game. Its key here to realize that hedge fund gains are stock holders losses so there are losses to retirement accounts.

Madoff was successful because he played on investors assumption that the game was fixed and their fears that they wouldn't be able to get in on that fix if they asked too many questions.

[mjs]

The hedge fund ownership is a red herring. If a good, hard working, man commits insider trading, its still wrong and if a cruel man makes an honest trade, its still an honest trade. Focus on the rightfulness of the act, not the actor.

[Detroitej72]

What some here fail to understand, or just simply ignore, is that the hedge funds still make their money. As I stated earlier, they immediately take out insurance against their losses, collect the payout, and can claim a tax write off on the original loss in the process.

[Sstashmoo]

Yeah, but it's a wash. They have to claim the insurance payoff as income.

[MoparDan]

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2009/05/non-tarp-lender-list/

Non-TARP lender list (http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2009/05/non-tarp-lender-list/)

The “Non-TARP lenders” who are still opposing a quick sale of Chrysler, instead favoring liquidation, are listed below (with thanks to sebring96hbg). (http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php?showuser=14809)

It is interesting to note that all but one are headquartered in New York, with two in Purchase. There may be some overlap in ownership. The “Arrow Distressed Securities Fund” almost certainly bought the securities after they fell in value; it is possible the other funds also bought the loans when the possibility of bankruptcy was known.

Schultze Master Fund Ltd and Apex Master Fund 3000, Purchase, NY
Arrow Distressed Securities Fund, Purchase, NY
Stairway Capital Management II, L.P., Uniondale, NY
Group G Partners LP, New York, NY
GGCP Sequoia L.P., New York, NY
Oppenheimer Senior Floating Rate Fund and Master Loan Fund, New York, NY
Foxhill Opportunity Master Fund, LP., Princeton, NJ

Approximate Aggregate Holdings: $295,000,000.00

[Detroitej72]

Yeah, but it's a wash. They have to claim the insurance payoff as income.

Not from what I've heard on the radio. According to NPR, they claim the loss and don't have to report the insurance payout as profit, since it technically wasn't profit.

[MoparDan]

Not from what I've heard on the radio. According to NPR, they claim the loss and don't have to report the insurance payout as profit, since it technically wasn't profit.

From Investopedia:
Hedge funds lie at the active end of the investing spectrum as they seek positive absolute returns, regardless of the performance of an index or sector benchmark. Unlike mutual funds, which are "long (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/long.asp)-only" (make only buy-sell decisions), a hedge fund engages in more aggressive strategies and positions, such as short selling (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/shortselling.asp), trading in derivative instruments (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/derivative.asp) like options (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/option.asp) and using leverage (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/leverage.asp) (borrowing) to enhance the risk/reward profile of their bets.

This activeness of hedge funds explains their popularity in bear markets (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bearmarket.asp). In a bull market (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bullmarket.asp), hedge funds may not perform as well as mutual funds, but in a bear market - taken as a group or asset class - they should do better than mutual funds because they hold short positions and hedges (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hedge.asp). The absolute return goals of hedge funds vary, but a goal might be stated as something like "6 to 9% annualized return regardless of the market conditions".

Investors, however, need to understand that the hedge-fund promise of pursuing absolute returns means hedge funds are "liberated" with respect to registration, investment positions, liquidity (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/liquidity.asp) and fee structure. First, hedge funds in general are not registered with the SEC (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/sec.asp). They have been able to avoid registration by limiting the number of investors and requiring that their investors be accredited (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/accreditedinvestor.asp), which means they meet an income or net worth standard. Furthermore, hedge funds are prohibited from soliciting or advertising to a general audience, a prohibition that lends to their mystique.

In hedge funds, liquidity is a key concern for investors. Liquidity provisions vary, but invested funds may be difficult to withdraw "at will". For example, many funds have a lock-out period, which is an initial period of time during which investors cannot remove their money.

Lastly, hedge funds are more expensive even though a portion of the fees are performance-based. Typically, they charge an annual fee equal to 1% of assets managed (sometimes up to 2%), plus they receive a share - usually 20% - of the investment gains. The managers of many funds, however, invest their own money along with the other investors of the fund and, as such, may be said to "eat their own cooking".

[ccbatson]

Legitimate but risky practices all. What is not legitimate? Trying to steal their rights to moneys owed them in order to take it for the government, or give it to corrupt cronies in organized labor.

[Detroitej72]

How about the fact they make their money by letting a company fail in order to liquidate it buy selling off its asset's. While not illegal, it sure is questionable on moral grounds, but I suspect these folks care little about morals.

[ccbatson]

Not at all...a business is about making money/profits. If the company is worth more broken up then functioning, then it was a relative failure and these hedge funds were clearing the way for more competitive businesses.

[MoparDan]

And how do we know that these hedge funds participants aren't foreign governments or their agents? Particularly since they're so secretive & non-regulated. They leverage enough against a good company to drive down the stock price & eventually force it into bankruptcy. That is just one reason why they need to be regulated.

[MoparDan]

Seems a few of these creditors are finally seeing the light.
http://www.freep.com/article/20090508/BUSINESS01/90508030/2+Chrysler+debt+holders+withdraw+objection

2 Chrysler debt holders withdraw objection



By Justin Hyde and Greg Gardner • Free Press Business Writers • May 8, 2009

Two of the five debt holders opposing Chrysler LLC's bankruptcy withdrew their objections to the automaker's reorganization today, dealing what may be a near fatal blow to the case argued by investors holding out for more money.



Oppenheimer Funds and Stairway Capital were among the five holders carrying $295 million of Chrysler's $6.9 billion in secured debt -- loans backed by the company's assets -- that had objected to the plan drawn up by the Obama administration's auto task force to give debt holders $2 billion in cash for canceling the loans.

But in a statement today, the two firms said that the opposition to Chrysler and the Obama administration's plan had shrunk to where it was unlikely they would prevail.

Oppenheimer "has determined that the senior creditors can no longer reasonably expect to increase the recovery rate on the debt they hold by opposing the task force’s restructuring plan."

Stairway said it remained "steadfast in our view that there should be significantly more value attained, given a normal course bankruptcy negotiation. The fact simply is, however, our group has become too small to have a voice within the bankruptcy."

The departure leaves three remaining holdouts: Schultze Asset Management, Group G Capital Partners and Foxhill Capital Partners.

The group revealed itself Wednesday after U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Arthur Gonzalez denied its request to keep the funds' identities from public view. Attorneys for the group say they have received threats ever since President Barack Obama sharply criticized holdouts to the government’s plan.

The holdouts argued that the government's plan illegally gave too much of Chrysler's value to the UAW retiree health-care trust fund and other creditors who would normally be paid in an bankruptcy case after secured loans were settled.

The group told the court earlier this week that it would lose money on its loans under the offer, and that they held no credit-default swaps – insurance that would have paid for some of their losses in case of a Chrysler default.

Lawyers for the group said there are other investors who oppose the deal but chose not to join the group in court because of the public reaction. The group failed Tuesday to halt the bidding process for Chrysler to sell most of its assets to a new partnership with Fiat SpA.

Contact JUSTIN HYDE:202-906-8204 or jhyde@freepress.com.

[MoparDan]

Hedge Funds cave in!!
http://www.allpar.com/news/
Chrysler creditor group throws in the towel (http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2009/05/chrysler-creditor-group-throws-in-the-towel/)

May 8th, 2009
by Bill Cawthon
The Chrysler Non-TARP Lenders Group has disbanded. The small group of creditors that had been objecting to Chrysler’s merger with Fiat (http://www.allpar.com/cars/adopted/fiat/fiat-cars.html) and quick exit from bankruptcy has given up its challenge after rising defections and declining influence meant “it wasn’t sensible to proceed” in the words Glenn Kurtz of White & Case, the group’s attorneys.
The dissolution of the group ends the most serious challenge to Chrysler’s completing its bankruptcy plan within the original 30- to 60-day period originally envisioned.

[rb336]

good news. thanks for the update

[MoparDan]

good news. thanks for the update

No problem at all! Allpar is really good about getting inside scoops. Now lets see if this bankruptcy proceeding will be expedient.

[ccbatson]

It is good news that the State underhandidly destroys private interests? How long before they do the same to everyone else? Liberty is under threat.

[Patrick]

Schultze Master Fund Ltd and Apex Master Fund 3000, Purchase, NY
Arrow Distressed Securities Fund, Purchase, NY
Stairway Capital Management II, L.P., Uniondale, NY
Group G Partners LP, New York, NY
GGCP Sequoia L.P., New York, NY
Oppenheimer Senior Floating Rate Fund and Master Loan Fund, New York, NY
Foxhill Opportunity Master Fund, LP., Princeton, NJ


Come on now...the East Coast loves us Midwestern rubes.

[ccbatson]

And the regular folks who just lost their investments carried by these entities?

[Stosh]

What about the 'regular folks" that lost their asses in the stock market? Losing their jobs? Something tells me that these are, for the most part, not regular folks. And some of the hedges are only losing about 10-12 cents on the dollar, having bought the note for not much more than that.

[ccbatson]

Apples and oranges....Obama did not out "the stock market" as evil in a speech.

Well, OK, that may be debatable, but it is still a different subject

[Stosh]

The hedges are evil, because of the fact that they are betting upon bankruptcy to further their profit. It's easy to just sit back and wait for your credit swap to come in.

[ccbatson]

Once again....the people that have investments as part of a balanced portfolio in some hedge funds are evil? Teacher's pensions as one example.

[Stosh]

Just a small portion of it. They will make it up in some other area. Actually, they only used the rich doctor's portion of the fund to invest, not the schoolteachers.

[Lorax]

It is good news that the State underhandidly destroys private interests? How long before they do the same to everyone else? Liberty is under threat.


So in your view, it's OK for wealthy sludge fund managers to screw working class people, but somehow stopping them threatens liberty? It's private interests that are the threat to liberty, what do you think this depression is about? These people represent no one but legacy-wealth families sitting on their asses by the pool with a laptop and an attitude. They can go screw themselves.

[MoparDan]

From Investopedia
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hedgefund.asp

What Does Hedge Fund Mean?
An aggressively managed portfolio of investments (http://www.detroityes.com/mb/#) that uses advanced investment strategies such as leveraged, long, short and derivative positions in both domestic and international markets with the goal of generating high returns (either in an absolute sense or over a specified market benchmark).

Legally, hedge funds are most often set up as private investment (http://www.detroityes.com/mb/#) partnerships that are open to a limited number of investors and require a very large initial minimum investment. Investments in hedge funds are illiquid as they often require investors keep their money in the fund for at least one year.

Investopedia explains Hedge Fund
For the most part, hedge funds (unlike mutual funds (http://www.detroityes.com/mb/#)) are unregulated because they cater to sophisticated investors. In the U.S., laws require that the majority of investors in the fund be accredited. That is, they must earn a minimum amount of money annually and have a net worth of more than $1 million, along with a significant amount of investment knowledge. You can think of hedge funds as mutual funds for the super rich. They are similar to mutual funds in that investments are pooled and professionally managed, but differ in that the fund has far more flexibility in its investment strategies.

[Lorax]

Thanks Dan for clairfying what CCBatty has a hard time doing, since he's perpetually choking on his fascist KoolAid.

Hedge funds are nothing more than legalized high-stakes gambling for rich, indulgent, greedy s.o.b.'s who's only regard is for the thrill of quick profits at the expense of middle-class America.

Fully sanctioned by the repugnican wing nuts, full of those precious Phil Gramm and Dick Cheney touches.

And Lush Limbaugh, the Caftan Warlord of the Fascist Right has a golden microphone there to catch the last gurgles, and FOX has techincolor to photograph the red, swollen tongues.

[CapitalistPig]

The title of this thread is patently false! Hedge Funds cannot force a company to do anything! Are hedge funds going to force google and apple in BK? No, they are profitable companies.

If a business isn't making a profit it will fail! Plain and simple. Chrysler should have failed decades ago. Delaying the inevitable hurts middle America more than anything else. There is nothing wrong with failure. Government propping up dead companies hurts the tax payer in the end. With failure comes rebirth, new jobs, and new inventions.

One question: What has government invented or produced?

Government get out of the way so we can get back to work!!

[CapitalistPig]

Since I just crushed this thread, I'm starting a new thread, entitled: Why is Michigan the worst state to do business in? Look it up. You might learn something!

[ejames01]

Another new guy is here to educate us.


Since I just crushed this thread, I'm starting a new thread, entitled: Why is Michigan the worst state to do business in? Look it up. You might learn something!

[CapitalistPig]

Another new guy is here to educate us.

whats wrong with learning something? you must be the superintendent of DPS. keep the kids uneducated so you can keep feeding them government cheese in exchange for votes.

[Stosh]

Another compelling reason for the ignore feature.

[rb336]

another dittohead without a clue or any concept of sarcasm

[MoparDan]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21942.html

Lawmakers blame hedge funds for bankruptcy



By LISA LERER (http://www.politico.com/reporters/LisaLerer.html) | 4/30/09 3:45 PM EDT



Michigan lawmakers blamed hedge funds – not the Obama administration – for forcing Chrysler into bankruptcy proceedings.

“Bankruptcy is only required today because of the greed of a few hedge funds that held a fraction of Chrysler’s debt,” said Rep. Candice Miller, (R-Mich.) “President Obama today stated that he did not stand with these hedge funds and neither do I.”

Lawmakers said that hedge funds and other non-bank financial institutions held up a restructuring deal, despite repeated incentives from by the auto task force and the Treasury Department to resolve their differences outside of the courts.

“The administration put a great deal of pressure on those entities to go forward,” said Rep. Gary Peters, (D-Mich.) “They gave these hedge funds every single possible opportunity to accept the deal.”

Last night, the Treasury department sweetened their $2 billion cash offer to holders of Chrysler’s secured debt by $250 million. The secured debt holders would have gotten the cash in exchange for retiring roughly $6.9 billion in debt. The administration also extended an original 6pm deadline to continue negotiating through the night.

Sen. Debbie Stabenow, (D-Mich.) blamed the breakdown in negotiations on three large hedge funds – Oppenheimer Funds, Perella Weinberg Partners and Stairway Capital.

“We’ve been working with them every day, last night, and up until this morning,” said Stabenow. “They pushed as hard as they could.”

Michigan Democrats have opposed putting auto companies into bankruptcy proceedings, fearing the loss of retiree benefits and payments to suppliers.

“The fate of Chrysler now rests in court proceedings of an unpredictable duration and ultimate determination,” said Rep. Thaddeus McCotter (R-MI). “Unconscionably, too many in our country consider our auto workers and retirees are disposable people – statistics not souls.”

President Obama, in an “upbeat” briefing call held shortly before his noon press conference, assured lawmakers that the proceedings would be swift and protect jobs and retiree pensions.

“While I don’t in any way prefer a bankruptcy, the structure they put together is the best we could have hoped for,” Stabenow said. “We will have a viable Chrysler and that’s the most important thing to keeps jobs in the country.”

[CapitalistPig]

another dittohead without a clue or any concept of sarcasm

ok? old wise and learned one. i responded to that sarcasm with my own sarcasm. i guess i don't know what sarcasm is. please teach me...(sarcasm implied in this statement as well)

touche my friend! no need to get hostile and resort to name calling me, "dittohead." i just state what i believe. you can do the same, but petty name calling won't get you far.

the smallest minority is the individual and i will continue to fight for individual rights from conception to natural death!

group think stinks!

[Stosh]

Boy, I'm glad that I can't see what was written there. LOL

[ccbatson]

Capitalistpig...a warm welcome from a like minded rational being. Please stay.

[rb336]

no need to get hostile and resort to name calling me, "dittohead." i just state what i believe. you can do the same, but petty name calling won't get you far.

no hostility involved, just a statement about the kind of posts you've made. typical dittohead bs.

[ccbatson]

Rb..you must have proof or acknowledgment that the ideas expressed are repetitions of Limbaugh to rightful call someone the name "dittohead"...although this forum expressly forbids name calling.

[CapitalistPig]

my feelings were hurt! i didn't stereotype you rb336, but that seems to be your modis operendi. trivalizing someone's beliefs to make them seem fringe right wing. i'm an independent! who are you? what do you believe in? besides your childish attacks on newbie posters!

[Big Dog]

Dittoheads are the term used to describe those in Rush Limbaugh's army. Many are proud to be called Dittoheads.

[Flanders]

my feelings were hurt! i didn't stereotype you rb336, but that seems to be your modis operendi. trivalizing someone's beliefs to make them seem fringe right wing. i'm an independent! who are you? what do you believe in? besides your childish attacks on newbie posters!

Seems to me, that with a moniker like "CapitalistPig", you already did the necessary stereotyping yourself.

[Flanders]

the smallest minority is the individual and i will continue to fight for individual rights from conception to natural death!

group think stinks!

Umm...isn't an internet forum a place where a group of people congregate virtually to share ideas, news, and opinions?

:D

[Detroitej72]

Dittoheads are the term used to describe those in Rush Limbaugh's army. Many are proud to be called Dittoheads.

That goes to show you Rush prefers zombies to rational thinkers, as the dittoheads just parrot what he said without thought.

Of coarse, you have to be brain dead to listen to his show for any length of time.

[Stosh]

Capitalistpig...a warm welcome from a like minded rational being. Please stay.

You a dittohead too CC???
Why am I not surprised. You haven't had an original thought here since you arrived.

[Lorax]

Wow, between CapitalistPigTripe and CCBattyass, you can just feel the hate of a thousand white hot lights!!:cool:

These two represent why the Repugnican Reich is an endangered species.

Problem is, they haven't been walking upright long enough.

[Stosh]

I wonder what happened to PaleoPat? Reborn?

[Lorax]

Pat Robertson?

I think he's returned to the fossil world where he came from, or perhaps he's shrunken out of existence. Is he still alive? :confused:

[CapitalistPig]

ha ha ha you guys are quite the comediens. ya'll should go on a tour! oh! how bout you bring a mic to the upcoming detroityes picnic. i'll bring vegetables.

i don't hate you guys. you can make fun of me all you want. i have ideas. you have reactions and jokes. cool with me. keep em coming! i know i will.

[Lorax]

ha ha ha you guys are quite the comediens. ya'll should go on a tour! oh! how bout you bring a mic to the upcoming detroityes picnic. i'll bring vegetables.

i don't hate you guys. you can make fun of me all you want. i have ideas. you have reactions and jokes. cool with me. keep em coming! i know i will.


Here's one for ya, instead of bringing vegetables, how about just showing up yourself?

That will be all the potato we can handle.

[CapitalistPig]

i'll be there and at the demf. you should go! i'll let you know where we decide on meeting up.

[Lorax]

I'll be sure to wear a hazmat suit and notify my next of kin. :eek:

[CapitalistPig]

must be nice to be rich and afford a hazmat suit. wish i had one.

[Lorax]

If you're such a Capitalist Pig, you should be able to afford one yourself. ;)

Then again, you really don't realize that the CEO's you worship already removed your underwear, and you still had your pants on. Sad. :(

[CapitalistPig]

clever. but all the CEO's voted for Obama. i'm not down with CEO's, but I understand they hire people.

[CapitalistPig]

ooops! cant have it both ways chicka chicka chicka slimshady! like i said rap is more your forte, stick to it!!

this is what you said about surveys in the "Michigan: Worst place to do business" thread:

slimshady (http://www.detroityes.com/mb/member.php?u=1249) http://www.detroityes.com/mb/images/statusicon/user_online.gif | Yesterday, 01:30 PM | Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 106 #2 (http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showpost.php?p=18721&postcount=2) http://www.detroityes.com/mb/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.detroityes.com/mb/report.php?p=18721)


This is just a survey. It means nothing.

[MoparDan]

End game

Court papers are available at Chrysler’s site, chryslerRestructuring.com (http://www.chryslerrestructuring.com/). The bankruptcy court judge, Arthur Gonzalez, has approved payments to employees and dealers, incentive payments, and honoring of warranties.
On May 5, 2009, Judge Gonzalez gave potential bidders until May 20, with a hearing for approval of bids on May 27. Anyone can bid on Chrysler; if a bid deemed more attractive than that of the Treasury, the judge can choose it. That means that someone like Bill Gates, Steve Feinberg, China, or Dubai could buy Chrysler, or a consortium could buy parts of it and break it up.
The bankruptcy is expected to be over in May or June. At that time Chrysler will be 20% owned by Fiat, 55% by an employee retirement plan, 8% by the U.S. Treasury, 2% by the Canadian government. The CEO is expected to be Sergio Marcchione, currently CEO of Fiat.
Fiat’s newly formed auto group will include Chrysler, Fiat, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, and, if current negotiations pan out, GM Europe (including Saab) and GM Latin America. That would make it the world’s second largest automaker after Toyota — and, one would suspect, very hard to manage. GM’s size is one of the factors that has been blamed for its losses; the larger an organization is, the harder it is to manage (which is why Johnson & Johnson is a collection of companies rather than one monolithic organization).
The new Chrysler will be managed by a board of directors consisting of nine directors, three of which will be appointed by Fiat (one of Fiat’s must satisfy the criteria for independence under the New York Stock Exchange listing rules). VEBA and the Government of Canada will each appoint one Director, and the U.S. Treasury will have the right to make the initial appointment of four directors (three of whom must be independent). VEBA is expected to sell its 55% share, not necessarily all at once, but the UAW has already announced it has no interest in maintaining the holdings.

[CapitalistPig]

[quote=slimshady;18777]Sorry, but I don't need my daily dose of outrage like many on the right seem to be addicted to. Since when is questioning the source and coming up with opposing viewpoints a bad thing? Surveys are notoriously biased, especially when based on a small sample and when the questions are badly formed and when the surveyers are biased themselves.

i don't have to say anything! this is great!

[Lorax]

clever. but all the CEO's voted for Obama. i'm not down with CEO's, but I understand they hire people.


I guess if you're Chinese, East Indian, Indonesian, Korean, Japanese or Taiwanese that may be the case, however CEO's of American companies are more interested in driving down our standard of living through union busting, wage and benefit slashing, etc.

You'd be a better supporter of your fellow citizens if you gave up the CEO lovefest and demanded socialized health care, supported the Empolyee Free Choice Act, supported a return to Eisenhower's 90% tax rate on income over 5 million bucks (inflation adjusted), which would discourage legacy wealth, and urged a return to a tarrif based economy like the rest of the world engages in- then you'd really be patriotic.

Then maybe our failing corporations could compete globally again.

Oh, and a hazmat suit only costs 15 bucks.

But I'm the one who needs it if we let the repugnicans back in power.

[CapitalistPig]

Hey slim! I guess you didn't want me to click on the link, because if you actually read the description of the safe suit (not a hazmat suit by the way) you will find that it really doesn't protect you. Looks like a nice SOCIALIZED safe suit. I think most people would expect a hazmat suit to protect them from nuclear, biological, and chemical gases!

I really like your beats slim. Keep working on your socialism musings tho!

Safe Suit

Stylish in a forest commando sort of way, and secure, our N-B-C protective suit is from the UK military. Separate pants and hooded shirt are about a 40 regular, or men's medium, although the pants have a more generous, and expandable, waist. (The Brits say they're for folks 5'10".) Lotsa pockets, tabs, hook-and-loop fasteners, suspenders and zippers, and they're a solid forest green, not OD. Surplus (although unworn) and manufactured in 1992, so no nuclear, biological, or chemical guarantees, OK? On the other hand, where else can you buy a new suit at this price?

[CapitalistPig]

this is a capitalist hazmat suit!

http://www.emergencymasks.com/product_info.php/products_id/1531?osCsid=f902d3e165b89374e9836dddeb3d314e

you can keep your little socialism "safe suit" i'll take the real deal, thank you!

oh the price for a hazmat suit is $399 not $15

i speak truth backed up with facts. you manipulate the truth with lies to support your radical ideas.

[MoparDan]

End game

Court papers are available at Chrysler’s site, chryslerRestructuring.com (http://www.chryslerrestructuring.com/). The bankruptcy court judge, Arthur Gonzalez, has approved payments to employees and dealers, incentive payments, and honoring of warranties.
On May 5, 2009, Judge Gonzalez gave potential bidders until May 20, with a hearing for approval of bids on May 27. Anyone can bid on Chrysler; if a bid deemed more attractive than that of the Treasury, the judge can choose it. That means that someone like Bill Gates, Steve Feinberg, China, or Dubai could buy Chrysler, or a consortium could buy parts of it and break it up.
The bankruptcy is expected to be over in May or June. At that time Chrysler will be 20% owned by Fiat, 55% by an employee retirement plan, 8% by the U.S. Treasury, 2% by the Canadian government. The CEO is expected to be Sergio Marcchione, currently CEO of Fiat.
Fiat’s newly formed auto group will include Chrysler, Fiat, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, and, if current negotiations pan out, GM Europe (including Saab) and GM Latin America. That would make it the world’s second largest automaker after Toyota — and, one would suspect, very hard to manage. GM’s size is one of the factors that has been blamed for its losses; the larger an organization is, the harder it is to manage (which is why Johnson & Johnson is a collection of companies rather than one monolithic organization).
The new Chrysler will be managed by a board of directors consisting of nine directors, three of which will be appointed by Fiat (one of Fiat’s must satisfy the criteria for independence under the New York Stock Exchange listing rules). VEBA and the Government of Canada will each appoint one Director, and the U.S. Treasury will have the right to make the initial appointment of four directors (three of whom must be independent). VEBA is expected to sell its 55% share, not necessarily all at once, but the UAW has already announced it has no interest in maintaining the holdings.

[ccbatson]

Kerkorian maybe? Anything is better than 55% organized labor and 8% government...heck, closing shop is better than that.

[Detroitej72]

Kerkorian maybe? Anything is better than 55% organized labor and 8% government...heck, closing shop is better than that.

Why do you hate the blue collar worker so much? Are you one of those elitists from the fringe right who wish to resurrect serfs as the backbone of industry?

[jiminnm]

Chrysler will not survive, regardless of ownership, unless they build cars people will buy. It seems that they have a ways to go.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124217615086013325.html

[Lorax]

Why do you hate the blue collar worker so much? Are you one of those elitists from the fringe right who wish to resurrect serfs as the backbone of industry?


That's exactly what Batty's all about.

Elitist in the same vein as Brush Lintball. Powdered wigs, knee breeches and all. He hates what he cannot control.

He mentioned Kirk Kerkorian, who at 90 years of age needs to give it up, finally. He'd rather an ancient investor, who won't be around long enough to see the damage caused by his brand of slash and burn economics, have the upper hand in Chrysler's future.

People like Batcrap are apologists for all of what the Bush Crime Family did during their 8 years of terror.

Batty is just one of those anti-intellectual drooling automatons, goosestepping to the music of the Repugnican Reich.

[CapitalistPig]

I love me some blue collar! How about we have private voting for union membership. That way people can make up their mind independently, if they want to join a union or not.

Love your play on words fLomax! So much genius from you.

[oldredfordette]

EFCA guarantees private union voting, without the intimidation from management. What could be more private than I want to join, give me my card?

[Lorax]

I love me some blue collar! How about we have private voting for union membership. That way people can make up their mind independently, if they want to join a union or not.

Love your play on words fLomax! So much genius from you.

Here's a little more genius, genius.

Your Capitalist Prig Friends on capitol hill, Democrats included, have just rejected the Credit Card Reformation Bill, so you and yours can continue to enjoy loan shark interest rates on cc loans from here to eternity.:D

I, thankfully don't use them, have rejected corporate control over my life for thrity years, but I do feel bad for those who fell into the trap.:(

I hope they all declare bankruptcy at once, rather like flushing all the toilets in a university dorm- then let the fascist pigs clean up the mess themselves.

[Detroitej72]

It is good news that the State underhandidly destroys private interests? How long before they do the same to everyone else? Liberty is under threat.

Yet I never heard a peep from you when liberty was threatened under Bush...

You are showing your blindness to the neo-con's "final saloution"...

[Detroitej72]

That's exactly what Batty's all about.

Elitist in the same vein as Brush Lintball. Powdered wigs, knee breeches and all. He hates what he cannot control.

Just out of curriosity, where did you hear(or read) this?

[Detroitej72]

He mentioned Kirk Kerkorian, who at 90 years of age needs to give it up, finally. He'd rather an ancient investor, who won't be around long enough to see the damage caused by his brand of slash and burn economics, have the upper hand in Chrysler's future.


I agree, Kerkorian is like a child who, upon not getting his way, grabs all his toys and threatens to go home if he dosn;t get his way.:mad:

[Detroitej72]

I love me some blue collar! How about we have private voting for union membership. That way people can make up their mind independently, if they want to join a union or not.

Then you must be for the "employee free choice bill", currently in congress.

Capitalist_Pig, you must be for the working man then?:confused:

[Lorax]

Just out of curriosity, where did you hear(or read) this?


A brother of one of the illegals who works for Limbo. It's a small community here, so word gets around. What you would call a "well known secret."

[CapitalistPig]

EFCA guarantees private union voting, without the intimidation from management. What could be more private than I want to join, give me my card?

ok thats a good example of people who WANT to join a union. give me an example of what would happen (or more appropriately HAS happened) to people who don't want to join a union....

[CapitalistPig]

Then you must be for the "employee free choice bill", currently in congress.

Capitalist_Pig, you must be for the working man then?:confused:

i'm definitely for ALL working men and women from ceo to janitor!

that is why i'm against this so called, "employee free choice act."

one cannot just read the name/title of a bill and skip the actual wording of it. even the man that sponsored the bill is willing to negotiate now, because he understands that it is too radical and not true to the name of the bill. here is what he said:

http://www.finance-commerce.com/article.cfm/2009/05/05/Cardcheck-may-be-dropped-from-union-measure-Harkin-says

i agree with Sen. Harkin, i think a compromise is in order. but to call this bill the way it is written now as a, "free choice act." is insulting at the very least. (it should definately be defeated and looks like it will.) lets be clear here, i am for private ballots. meaning, giving the employee a ballot and letting him or her vote on the matter within the privacy of their home or any other place they so desire.

its kinda cool your all interested in what i have to say!!

what up fLomax?!?

[oldredfordette]

In the privacy of their own home? That's what a card is for. Take it, sign it, return it. When the majority of workers sign the card, or don't sign the card, the matter is solved. It's an election. Democracy.

[MoparDan]

Good article on one of the AllPar Weblogs.
http://www.allpar.com/weblogs/2009/05/13/gm-the-64000000000-question/

GM: the $64,000,000,000 Question (http://www.allpar.com/weblogs/2009/05/13/gm-the-64000000000-question/)

[Lorax]

i'm definitely for ALL working men and women from ceo to janitor!

that is why i'm against this so called, "employee free choice act."

one cannot just read the name/title of a bill and skip the actual wording of it. even the man that sponsored the bill is willing to negotiate now, because he understands that it is too radical and not true to the name of the bill. here is what he said:

http://www.finance-commerce.com/article.cfm/2009/05/05/Cardcheck-may-be-dropped-from-union-measure-Harkin-says

i agree with Sen. Harkin, i think a compromise is in order. but to call this bill the way it is written now as a, "free choice act." is insulting at the very least. (it should definately be defeated and looks like it will.) lets be clear here, i am for private ballots. meaning, giving the employee a ballot and letting him or her vote on the matter within the privacy of their home or any other place they so desire.

its kinda cool your all interested in what i have to say!!

what up fLomax?!?

I just offered Battyacid some of my fLomax, since you're looking for some too, you'll both have to wait until I finish this six pack.

So I guess in not supporting EFCA, you advocate for Walmart employees locked in the store until inventories are done at 3 am? This is a common occurrance with mega-wealth corporations, who have used the de-regulation of the Tush years as reason enough to crap on their employees.

Point in fact, Walmart opened a new store in Ontario recently, and when the government allowed the employees to unionize, Walmart abandoned a brand new store! They would rather walk away than set a precedent with one unionized store in Ontario.:eek:

Shows you who they're really thinking about. Fascists.

[ccbatson]

Poor babies...locked in the store until 3am are they? Once a year? As part of a package of pay and benefits for the work they do that supports a decent lifestyle for them and their families?

You realize that some people work night shifts don't you? Some (usually self employed) work 110-130 hours a week and do so by choice (because they enjoy it).

Looking around at unionized industries and their progressively worsening fate, Walmart is very wise to avoid organized labor. For their own survival. Remember, if they fail, all of those evil jobs go away.

[MoparDan]

http://www.allpar.com/news/


Dealership closings hurt communities (http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2009/05/dealership-closings-hurt-communities/)

May 15th, 2009 by Bill Cawthon
The National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA) says the dealership cuts planned at Chrysler and General Motors will have a serious impact on local communities.
According to the NADA, auto (http://www.allpar.com/news/#) dealers typically account for 18 percent of local sales dollars and 13.4 percent of local, non-government payrolls. The typical dealership has 50 employees, an annual payroll of $2.59 million and contributes $13 million to the local economy. Dealerships also have been generous supporters of local school and youth activities as well as civic functions.
It’s estimated that the terminations of 3,000-plus Chrysler (http://www.allpar.com/news/#) and GM franchises could cost more than 150,000 jobs and millions of dollars in lost tax revenues at a time the nation can ill afford either.
In a statement, the NADA addressed the Chrysler cuts, saying, “Today’s announcement by Chrysler that it is rejecting 789 of its Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep (http://www.allpar.com/model/jeep/jeep-history.html) dealers marks a very sad day in retail automotive history.
“These dealers and their more than 40,000 employees have done nothing but proudly represent the Chrysler brand through good times and bad, and today find themselves left behind as the company reorganizes itself in bankruptcy court.”
================================================== =====

The domino effect begins. A consolidation had to occur at some point in time, but considering the abrubtness, 40k people out of work just like that.

[Lorax]

Poor babies...locked in the store until 3am are they? Once a year? As part of a package of pay and benefits for the work they do that supports a decent lifestyle for them and their families?

You realize that some people work night shifts don't you? Some (usually self employed) work 110-130 hours a week and do so by choice (because they enjoy it).

Looking around at unionized industries and their progressively worsening fate, Walmart is very wise to avoid organized labor. For their own survival. Remember, if they fail, all of those evil jobs go away.

I think I'm renaming you Simon Legree :eek:.

They "enjoy" it? Who are you kidding. I guess you believe rape victims must "enjoy" it as well.

Even mentioning unionizing at a Walmart gets you fired. There are no internal avenues to adressing grievances with managers. You get fired.

Thanks to the fascist policies of Walmart, helped along by the fascist policies of the Tush Administration, Walmart was allowed to get the size they are- too big to fail in your lexicon.

What if Walmart did go under? Why should the failure of ONE company bring down the nations's economy? That would surely happen if Walmart did go down.

The failure of AIG certainly proved this in the banking/insurance world. Look where this fascist policy got us.

You really need to wake up and stop worshipping corporations. With you it must go deeper than mere worship of the CEO- you probably have some sort of twisted supply-room fantasy you're living out in your mind. There really is no other explaination for your backwards view of the world. :eek:

[MoparDan]

Geez, man take a fucking pill. The link I sent you was for a military Nuclear Biological and Chemical protection suit - that should be enough. Besides, it was JOKE man, or do you think I thought you needed a real hazmat suit? Ok, so you can come up with $15 but not $400? You still sound like an unemployed loser.

I've got an old one from my active duty days that I could ship up there. Needs new filters for the mask though. Not to mention it could probably use a good thorough cleaning after all these years. Wear it to picnics & parties, be the talk of the town!:cool:


https://www.armynavydeals.com/asp/images/product_images/HW220.jpg

[Lorax]

However, Walmart, Target, K-Mart, all big box retailers, Home Depot, etc. regularly practice this- even if an outside inventory audit is performed, it is in unison with store employees as part of their "stock" assignments.

[ccbatson]

They aren't locked up....the job requires the time, if they don't agree, they can quit (and leave).

[mjs]

Slimshady, really? Employees couldn't open the front doors and emergency exits? Are you even implying its company policy? I want a source and I don't mean Joe Blow's blog that he runs from his basement.

The Home Depot I worked at didn't even allow empty carts in front of the emergency doors. It was on the safety checklist we did every opening and closing shift. When I punched out after store hours, I simply left by turning the lock and someone would lock it behind me. Our store locked outsiders out because we wanted to protect the employees.

[Lorax]

I was first to add this wrinkle to the story-

There are numerous occasions where Walmart has locked it's employees in. One case mentioned above is the first to bring the national spotlight to it.

Always after store hours, and frequently during periods of inventory, most big box retailers have also done it. They order pizzas and keep people, often mothers who need to return home to their children.

There are also plenty of instances when store politics shift workers to "stock assignment" lousy after hours shifts, generally for cleaning, stocking shelves, etc.

These shifts are offered for marginally higher pay, but the trade off is that no one can leave the store until management says so, with these shifts often being used punitively to punish marginalized workers, or those out of favor with the boss at that moment.

It's amazing in how just a few short years we can have behemoths like Walmart destroying main street American retail, leaving whole downtowns destitute and abandoned in favor of acres of paved parking lots and a few jobs.

But hey, there's a new museum in Bentonville Arkansas with Impressionist master's paintings donated through the largess of the Walton family, so the underemployed can git some kulture between lousy shifts.

[mjs]

Ok. You swayed me. The Plaintiffs have made it through a Walmart motion to dismiss the false imprisionment and Walmart settled a different illegal case with the Feds for $11 million. A major company operating in America in today's day and age!

Aren't the major fines for this stuff easy pickens to help Jenny fix Michigan's budget issues by making frequent inspections? Doesn't Jenny see the political capital from Dems for burning Walmart and from Repubs for catching illegals? The good thing is that some people seem to be successfully going after them. The bad news is that it seems to be profitable to do it anyway.

http://www.walmartjanitors.com/wmj94.pl?wsi=0&websys_screen=public_casedevelopments

[Lorax]

Don't forget the Canadian Walmart workers who were out of jobs- the entire store full of them- when a group of employees decided to unionize not long after the store was built, and the government gave the go-ahead to unionize, and without a fight, Walmart announced the store was closing, and left town! :eek:

God forbid the employees should have the right to assemble and address grievances. But knowing Walmart's horrid track record with employee relations, they thought attempting to unionize would be a good thing. Now they're out of jobs.

[ccbatson]

I say bravo Walmart...Private property and a business that is not there to benefit it's employees, rather to make a profit and, as a side benefit, employ people.

[Lorax]

Hopefully you keep those views to yourself when in public, since they're socially unacceptable.

Do you talk bullcrap like that while chastising your illegal ailen servants?

I'd check my food after ordering at restaurants, if I were you.

Wow, you are a super-elitist.

[ccbatson]

Heck no...if someone asks, or discusses it, I am not bashful...political correctness be damned.

The word is Individualist (as opposed to elitist)....look up the definitions.

[Lorax]

I've got your number, Batts- elitist, and a few other perjoratives fit you just fine. :eek:

[ccbatson]

I don't think you know what the word means, let alone anything about me.

[ccbatson]

Was I addressing you SM?

[Detroitej72]

Locking employees in the store overnight is fairly common. Several years back, in college, I worked at a local independent grocery store, and the night stock crew were locked in the store overnight. I think the crew leader may have had a key though, in case of an emergency.

[Detroitej72]

As part of a package of pay and benefits for the work they do that supports a decent lifestyle for them and their families?

As far as benefits are concerned, I recall a few years back, Walmart said there was no need to offer health care to their employees, as they could just apply for Medicaid or other welfare. Now thats some good conservative values there.

I have no clue as to weather they have since changed that stupid policy.

[mjs]

They haven't, though I remember hearing something during the debates, where Obama had a plan that would have fixed that government subsidy that Walmart gets. I wondered if it gave them an unfair advantage over their competition or if their competition had to start doing it too.

[ccbatson]

If Walmart representatives said something that ignorant...I would be very surprised.

Regardless, that is beside the point.