Savage: Illegals Elected Obama

[Detroitej72]

I was listening to the Mikey Savage Show last night, and the right's darling of dumb logic actually said President Obama won the election because of all the illegal immigrants voting for him!!!

I guess he isn't aware that you have to be a citizen to vote, he must have missed that in his government class. What was even more amazing was that I didn't hear any listeners call him out on this, they can't all be this gullable now, can they?

The fringe right is great for shear entertainment, comics couldn't make stuff up that is this funny.

[jams]

Too funny! Yep, a nation of immigrants fears that others will over-run them.

NO IRISH NEED APPLY!

[oldredfordette]

Except it's not so funny when the morans who listen to Mr. Weiner then turn around and repeat that bilge to everyone who has to listen, and when they repeat it enough, they actually believe it. It's like the urban legend of the FEMA detention camps, some people are stupid enough to believe it.

[rb336]

Except it's not so funny when the morans who listen to Mr. Weiner then turn around and repeat that bilge to everyone who has to listen, and when they repeat it enough, they actually believe it. It's like the urban legend of the FEMA detention camps, some people are stupid enough to believe it.

and that group is practically all that remains of the republican party

[East Detroit]

It's binary.... really quite simple.... socialist agenda...... property = liberty..... money > people.....

[oladub]

I was listening to the Mikey Savage Show last night, and the right's darling of dumb logic actually said President Obama won the election because of all the illegal immigrants voting for him!!!

I guess he isn't aware that you have to be a citizen to vote, he must have missed that in his government class.

You are correct. Illegal aliens are not supposed to vote or even be here.

[ghettopalmetto]

You are correct. Illegal aliens are not supposed to vote or even be here.

There's no "supposed to" about it. Illegal aliens CANNOT register to vote.

[oladub]

There's no "supposed to" about it. Illegal aliens CANNOT register to vote.

I totally agree. They legally CANNOT be here either but word has it that some illegal aliens live here anyway. If President Obama chooses to allow them to remain here and, perhaps, someday become citizens and vote here, then all this illegal activity would go away.

[ghettopalmetto]

I totally agree. They legally CANNOT be here either but word has it that some illegal aliens live here anyway. If President Obama chooses to allow them to remain here and, perhaps, someday become citizens and vote here, then all this illegal activity would go away.

Unless anyone can demonstrate how it's possible for an undocumented alien to register to vote, this is just more trumped-up bullshit scare tactics from the lunatic fringe of the right-wing.

Exactly how many undocumented aliens voted for Obama in 2008?

[firstandten]

I was listening to the Mikey Savage Show last night, and the right's darling of dumb logic actually said President Obama won the election because of all the illegal immigrants voting for him!!!

I guess he isn't aware that you have to be a citizen to vote, he must have missed that in his government class. What was even more amazing was that I didn't hear any listeners call him out on this, they can't all be this gullable now, can they?

The fringe right is great for shear entertainment, comics couldn't make stuff up that is this funny.

Entertainment for the non-thinkers with a racist bent in our society, after all every market segment (as they would call it) can be tapped for the advertising dollars and make guys like Savage pay more taxes under Obama.

[jiminnm]

There's no "supposed to" about it. Illegal aliens CANNOT register to vote.

This is simply not true. Illegal aliens are not supposed to, but can, register to vote. There is no requirement that one demonstrate citizenship when registering, although citizenship or legal residency is required. With all the various interest groups registering voters today even legal residency is seldom verified.

Here in NM and in many other states, citizenship or legal residency does not have to be proven to receive a driver's license. That driver's license is all that is required to register.

[ejames01]

So they don't check citizenship?

[East Detroit]

Darn, the Republicans tried so hard with their poll taxes and still failed?

Maybe they should work on an overwhelmingly good platform that most people will like.

[Maxine1958]

Wait just a dag-nabit minute!

Are you really saying that no one bothers to check residency when you register to vote?

I'm thinking of all the times I've registered, usually right at the SOS office when I renew my license. Wow, I just assumed that somewhere in the background, some checks were made before I checked in to vote.

So this sinking fear creeping up my spine is real . . .

[gazhekwe]

See how they do? Throw out half truth like it is absolutely the whole truth and people believe it.

How long ago did you get your very first license? The process is a bit different than renewing an existing license. Here are the Michigan requirements. I find it hard to believe other states have fewer requirements.

You'll need to present documentation of a valid Social Security number or letter of ineligibility (http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1627_8669-88859--,00.html), U.S. citizenship or legal presence if not a U.S. citizen, identity and Michigan residency (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf). If you have lost your Social Security card (http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1627-88859--,00.html) and need a replacement, visit your local Social Security office (http://www.socialsecurity.gov/chicago/michigan.htm) to apply for one.


If you are getting a new MI license and you have moved from somewhere else, you have to provide the following information.


Present documentation of a valid Social Security number or letter of ineligibility (http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1627-88859--,00.html), U.S. citizenship or legal presence if not a U.S. citizen, identity and Michigan residency (http://www.michigan.gov/documents/sos/Applying_for_lic_or_ID_SOS_428_222146_7.pdf)
Take a vision test and pass the physical standards (http://www.michigan.gov/sos/1,1607,7-127-1627_8669_8998-30007--,00.html)
Have your photograph taken
Pay a $25 fee and obtain a Temporary Operator's Permit. The TOP allows you to drive until your Michigan driver's license arrives in the mail.

http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1627_8669_9040_9042_47086-171816--,00.html

[gazhekwe]

New Mexico requires citizenship to obtain a driver's license, OR the following: (This should make you feel better, Jim)

Top (http://www.dmv.org/nm-new-mexico/apply-license.php#overview)11) Non-Citizens

If you decide to become a New Mexico resident, you'll need a driver's license. To obtain a license, follow the steps as described above. Identification will be the only difference. You will need to provide:
Social Security Card

If you are unable to obtain a Social Security card, you must provide two other forms of identification, which include:


An individual tax identification number (ITIN), or a letter from the IRS issuing an ITIN



A Matricula Consular card issued AFTER February 1, 2005 by the Mexican Consulate in Albuquerque or El Paso, Texas



A valid and current foreign passport only if you ineligible for an ITIN or a valid Matricula Consular card

Identity

You must provide one of the following documents:


An original or certified foreign birth certificate, along with English translation



Original copy of an FS545 or FS1350 form, documenting birth abroad and translated into English



An N560 certificate of citizenship



An N550 certificate of naturalization



A valid permanent resident card issued by the U.S. government



A valid I-551 resident alien card that was not issued prior to 1997



A marriage certificate issued by a U.S. state or territory

Proof of Residency if Over 15 Years Old

You must provide two of the following:


A bank statement



An employment pay stub, containing your name and address



An insurance statement (car, home, health) documenting current coverage



A property rental or purchase agreement



Any type of utility bill, excluding a cell phone bill



A local property tax statement



A local mortgage document



Documented proof of having a child enrolled in New Mexico's school system



A current and valid motor vehicle registration certificate



A New Mexico medical assistance or public assistance card



An original document from a New Mexico community organization, or from a city, county, state, tribal or federal government organization confirming that you a New Mexico resident


http://www.dmv.org/nm-new-mexico/apply-license.php#Non-Citizens

[ccbatson]

It is possible, but irrelevant after the fact.

Makes more sense why liberal politicians are for open borders, and it isn't for the good of the country, but for their own political aspirations.

[Detroitej72]

It is possible, but irrelevant after the fact.

Makes more sense why liberal politicians are for open borders, and it isn't for the good of the country, but for their own political aspirations.

Remind me again who gave amnesty to illegals in the 80's? Oh, wait, that would be that god of the right, Ronald Wilson Reagen!!!

This was also a plan of Bush's to show how much he loved Latinos, but he was never able to acomplish it because he was too busy torturing, errrr, enhancing the interrogation meathods.

[barnesfoto]

"I was listening to the Mikey Savage Show"

Let's get things straight. The man's real name is Michael Weiner. I believe that's pronounced "Weener"

And for those of you who support immigration reform, here's a link to some new downloadable
Shepard Fairey works

http://cimarrones.org/

[Det_ard]

What's a fake driver's license, SS card or green card cost these days? About $100? They're easy to get in any city. I don't think many illegals are really interested in getting registered to vote but they easily could if they wanted to.

Take a fake SS card and a fake birth certificate and a real bill with your address and get a real driver's license. Take that and get registered to vote. Not to hard to do.

[barnesfoto]

in theory, nothing is hard to do for people who post endlessly on the internet....Just because fake IDs are sold in many places does not mean that they work in many places.

[rb336]

Remind me again who gave amnesty to illegals in the 80's? Oh, wait, that would be that god of the right, Ronald Wilson Reagen!!!


Wing nuts always find it convenient to forget what REALLY happened under Reagan, since it undermines completely their core ideals.

Tax cuts for the wealthy create jobs - reagan's tax cuts came into effect and we then had a two-year bad recession that ended....when reagan started spending huge amounts, which, of course, weren't covered by getting increased tax revenue

[oladub]

Remind me again who gave amnesty to illegals in the 80's? Oh, wait, that would be that god of the right, Ronald Wilson Reagen!!!.

Reagan proved that amnesty programs encourage more illegal imigration. I found the following postscript by Edwin Meese, Reagan's attorney general. In the article, Meese lays out the Reagan amnesty plan which is almost identical to the Comprehensive Reform Act of 2006 and what President Obama proposes. This is Meese's analysis.

"The lesson from the 1986 experience is that such an amnesty did not solve the problem. There was extensive document fraud, and the number of people applying for amnesty far exceeded projections. And there was a failure of political will to enforce new laws against employers."

"And what about those already here? Today it seems to me that the fair policy, one that will not encourage further illegal immigration, is to give those here illegally the opportunity to correct their status by returning to their country of origin and getting in line with everyone else. This, along with serious enforcement and control of the illegal inflow at the border—a combination of incentives and disincentives—will significantly reduce over time our population of illegal immigrants."

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18399

[rb336]

Reagan proved that amnesty programs encourage more illegal imigration.

I do not know one progressive who wants amnesty. i'm sure there are some. lenient border/imigration policies are very anti-labor

[ccbatson]

Very true, points to the left in recognizing one of the few liberal proclivities, and therefore, errors of Ronald Reagan.

[Detroitej72]

If you take time to research all Reagan's policies, you'll find more examples where his policies helped put us in the current financial crisis were in now.

Contrary to the right's tired, worn out arguments, he wasn't a god.

[barnesfoto]

Ray-Gun's policies of arming and bankrolling death squad governments in El Salvador and Guatemala, and the funding of the Contras in Nicaragua created a huge wave of refugees from those countries, some of whom came illegally and many of whom came illegally. All that money dumped into propping up kleptocratic regimes and look at the condition of those countries today!

Amnesty was the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens twenty some years ago, and it's the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens today. The idea that people should "wait in line" always comes from folks who have never had a friend or relative stuck in the gridlock of US immigration law.

[Detroitej72]

Amnesty was the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens twenty some years ago, and it's the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens today. The idea that people should "wait in line" always comes from folks who have never had a friend or relative stuck in the gridlock of US immigration law.

Giving amnesty to illegals is never a good idea, as it rewards people for braking the law and encourages others to follow.

[cheddar bob]

Imposing a fine for such infractions (like the suggested $5,000 or $10,000 in the 2006 reform package) is by definition, not "amnesty".

[oladub]

Imposing a fine for such infractions (like the suggested $5,000 or $10,000 in the 2006 reform package) is by definition, not "amnesty".

Cheddar, Is that all you think your American citizenship is worth? I don't want to start selling US ditizenships but if I had to put a price on a US citizenship, I think that $200,000 would be a bargain for a lot of people trying to better their lives. Consider, a US citizenship allows one to buy into the social security system, make wages much higher than in a lot of other countries, send kids to schools (worth about $9,000/kid/year), and , if necessary, show up at the emergency ward for free medical treatment.

This doesn't even begin to pay for unemployment compensation and retraining workers displaced from their meat-packing, production, or construction job because they have been displaced by someone willing to work for a lot less.

Meanwhile, legal immigrants, who haven't caused 'infractions' already have to pay thousands of dollars for applications and legal help to navigate through the immigration process. If they had a record of 'infractions', they wouldn't even be let into this country.

[barnesfoto]

We've discussed this hundreds of times. and we'll be having the same arguments in 20 years.

There is no cost effective way to make "illegals" leave, other than (a) a depression that lasts a decade (no thanks!) or (b) having Americans grow their own food and raise their own livestock.( And we know that, besides a few hippie friends raising chickens in their yards, that isn't going to happen)


The same folks who endless screech about illegals will tiptoe off to the fridge after exhausting typing sessions and stuff their mouths with goods picked and processed by the hands of the people whom they denounce.

The workers displaced in the meatpacking industry were not displaced by illegals, they were displaced by Ray-Gun's deregulation of the industry and the fact that meatpacking jobs left places like NYC and Chicago and moved into parts of the country where there was little or no union activity, and (again, thanks to the father of modern conservocritism) fewer and fewer government inspectors to monitor safety violations.
As for "rewarding people for breaking the law", a fine could be included. (The last time I broke the law, somebody left a ticket on my window and I paid a fine--it was much cheaper than sending armed people to search and arrest me!)
(Besides, when Ollie North broke the law they gave him a talk show!)

When a few people break a law, usually it's the people that are flawed.
When tens of thousands of people break a law, it's usually the law that's flawed.

[firstandten]

Ray-Gun's policies of arming and bankrolling death squad governments in El Salvador and Guatemala, and the funding of the Contras in Nicaragua created a huge wave of refugees from those countries, some of whom came illegally and many of whom came illegally. All that money dumped into propping up kleptocratic regimes and look at the condition of those countries today!

Amnesty was the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens twenty some years ago, and it's the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens today. The idea that people should "wait in line" always comes from folks who have never had a friend or relative stuck in the gridlock of US immigration law.


Another result of this Reagan policy was the mega drug wars and drug kingpins in a drugs for guns operations with the Contra's that just helped the decline of inner cities in LA , Detroit and others which of course is being felt to this day.

Freeway Ricky Ross had a known role in this whole sordid situation.

[oladub]

Deriding Ronald Reagan is interesting but the question should be whether President Obama will be making the same immigration policy mistakes that Reagan made a quarter of a century ago.

Vegetables will cost only pennies more if picked by Americans making a better wage. Just putting Americans to work will save unemployment and welfare dollars. Were there a scarcity of labor, labor would be able to demand better wages. Besides, the number of illegal aliens working in construction far exceeds the number working in lettuce fields. I suppose that when the use of illegal construction workers is widespread enough, construction wages will plummet to the point where the comment will be made that they are doing jobs Americans won't do. The comment should be, "They are doing jobs Americans won't do for illegal alien level wages."


barnesphoto says,
"Amnesty was the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens twenty some years ago, and it's the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens today. The idea that people should "wait in line" always comes from folks who have never had a friend or relative stuck in the gridlock of US immigration law."
"When tens of thousands of people break a law, it's usually the law that's flawed. "

The cheapest solution to bank robbery might be to just hand out bank accounts to robbers so they wouldn't have to enter banks illegally to make withdrawals. I know two people going through the arduous and expensive legal immigration route. It is an insult to the people who wait in line, do everything legally, and are knocked around by our immigration authorities as they watch sneaks get better treatment.

Other reasons for thousands, actually millions, of people breaking the law include a corrupt corporatist government whose policies ensure a steady available flow of cheap labor into this country. As Meese reflected on the failure of Reagan's amnesty program, "there was a failure of political will to enforce new laws against employers." That's corruption and there is not a hint that the Obama administration will have the political will so lacking in the Reagan and subsequent administrations.

[rb336]

Ola, you are 100% correct

[ccbatson]

Let me get this straight...liberals here oppose open borders and immigration? Or they just oppose it when it is the result of a Republican's error? You can't have both.

[firstandten]

Found a link back when Obama was campaigning. This is pretty comphensive in terms of what and how he feels about immigration. He does not mention Amnesty as being part of his policy

Comments?


http://www.ontheissues.org/International/Barack_Obama_Immigration.htm

[ccbatson]

Are you blind? McCain's proposal (with which Obama agreed there) was heavily slanted towards amnesty. He (Obama) also blurs the distinction between legal and illegal aliens (one of which is a group of criminals by definition).

[rb336]

Let me get this straight...liberals here oppose open borders and immigration? Or they just oppose it when it is the result of a Republican's error? You can't have both.

You haven't been paying attention the whole time we have been here have you?

[ccbatson]

Sure I have, just pointing out a hypocrisy by way of playing devil's advocate. You criticise Reagan for amnesty, so doesn't that mean you oppose amnesty?

[rb336]

Sure I have, just pointing out a hypocrisy by way of playing devil's advocate. You criticise Reagan for amnesty, so doesn't that mean you oppose amnesty?

I have opposed amnesty then and now. no hypocrisy involved

[firstandten]

"We need immigration reform that will secure our borders, and punish employers who exploit immigrant labor; reform that finally brings the 12 million people who are here illegally out of the shadows by requiring them to take steps to become legal citizens We must assert our values and reconcile our principles as a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. That is a priority I will pursue from my very first day."


That was a pretty long article I linked but the above quote summarizes his position
I think its pretty clear and I don't see the "A" word

[ccbatson]

That would have been somewhat promising if it wasn't refuted by his actions (and lack thereof), and given the undetrone of his duplicitous and deceptive language used at all times.

Notice who he wants to punish....the producers/capitalists, and who is not specifically targeted for punishment (the ILLEGAL immigrants). He then describes bringing immigrants "out of the shadows" (no mention as to whether illegal or not). Now read between the lines and what do you see?? AMNESTY.

Endorsing and praising McCain's amnesty bill is another big clue.

Sorry to inform you that you have been duped (by Obama) again, but...it is what it is.

[barnesfoto]

Ah Ed Meese- He's one of the reasons that I call these folks "conservocrites".
The guy was part of an admin that made deregulation of corporate behavior a national religion, and here he is lamenting a lack of regulation against corporate behavior...Of course, old Ed was not against all regulation-he loved having the cops come out to beat up college students back when he was then Governor Ray-Gun's lackey.

(from Answers.com)

While Reagan's legal affairs secretary, Meese was involved in persuading Reagan to request the resignation of then-chief of staff Philip Battaglia on the grounds that Battaglia was engaging in homosexual acts with two aides, including then-intern Jack Kemp. The allegations regarding Kemp, however, were circumstantial, based on their joint purchase of a cabin.[3]

As Reagan's chief of staff, Meese was instrumental in the decision to crack down on student protesters at People's Park in Berkeley, California, on May 15, 1969. Meese was widely criticized for escalating official response to the People's Park protest, during which law enforcement officers killed one protestor and seriously injured hundreds of others, many of whom were bystanders. Meese advised Reagan to declare a state of emergency in Berkeley, contrary to the recommendation of the Berkeley City Council, which led to a two-week occupation of the city by National Guard troops.


"Besides, the number of illegal aliens working in construction far exceeds the number working in lettuce fields."

Besides reducing Agribusiness to a single plant, you have completely side stepped the steaming turd of the meat and poultry processing industry. Are you a vegetarian or do you just like to pretend that an American cut up your beef and plucked your chicken?

"That's corruption"
Agreed.

"The cheapest solution to bank robbery might be to just hand out bank accounts to robbers"
I'd ask the banks-they are good at finding cheap solutions, whether it's outsourcing jobs or planting ink bombs in the cash bags. But in general, laws against bank robbery seem to be working, so perhaps you are comparing apples and oranges.

"That's an insult to those standing in line"


Immigration reform includes streamlining things so that those lines are shorter, which would hopefully make entering the country illegally less popular...but lets discuss the old "insult" argument .

If we are going to discuss "insults", let's discuss the "wet feet" policy that allows people from Cuba to apply for citizenship if their feet touch US soil.

People from Mexico or Haiti or Guatemala or El Salvador-all countries that have dysfunctional economic systems are not allowed the same rights, and that's an insult.

It's an insult that almost 8 years after the attack on the WTC, an illegal alien named Luis Posada-Carriles who is connected with terrorist acts in 1976 (blowing up an aircraft filled with civilians) is still living in South Florida, enjoying the protection of the Cuban-American community and the Bush family. (I guess being an ex-CIA employee buys you lots of amnesty) Yet folks who want to come here and hang drywall are at the top of your list, and that's an insult.

It's also an insult to the tens of millions of nonwhite people who sought citizenship prior to JFK that immigration laws prior to the 1960's favored white skinned people. And it's an insult to my grandmother's people, who had their land stolen by people with laws and papers, that folks would one day stand on the same stolen land, claiming some vague sort of moral superiority, and think that they could somehow stop a human behavior-migration-that has existed since the beginning of time.

[oladub]

Firstandten wrote, “Found a link back when Obama was campaigning. This is pretty comphensive in terms of what and how he feels about immigration. He does not mention Amnesty as being part of his policy. Comments?”

"We need immigration reform that will secure our borders, and punish employers who exploit immigrant labor; reform that finally brings the 12 million people who are here illegally out of the shadows by requiring them to take steps to become legal citizens We must assert our values and reconcile our principles as a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. That is a priority I will pursue from my very first day."


That was a pretty long article I linked but the above quote summarizes his position
I think its pretty clear and I don't see the "A" word


Firstandten, Meese listed the similarities between Reagan's amnesty plan and the more recent Comprehensive Reform Act of 2006 . He concluded, “If this sounds familiar, it’s because these are pretty much the same provisions included in the Comprehensive Reform Act of 2006, which its supporters claim is not amnesty. In the end, slight differences in process do not change the overriding fact that the 1986 law and the recent Senate legislation both include an amnesty. The difference is that President Reagan called it for what it was.

Reagan may have been the Teflon president but President Obama can be pretty slippery himself. He says one thing and does another. No need to read between the lines. These are quotes from your article.

Q: Does your health care plan cover the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants?
A: It does not.

Obama co-sponsored providing funding for social services for non citizens
OFFICIAL CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY: To establish a grant program to provide financial assistance to States and local governments for the costs of providing health care and educational services to non citizens.

At the very end of your article, President Obama is rated as a wide open border kind of guy - almost an extremist.

Obama scores 8% by USBC on immigration issues
OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2005-2006 USBC scores as follows:

0%-30%: open-border stance (approx. 197 members)
30%-70%: mixed record on open borders (approx. 70 members)
70%-100%: sealed-border stance (approx. 202 members)

The President's answers frequently are ambiguous, purposely mixing illegal aliens together with legal immigrants as 'immigrants'. In one of his answers, he did use the legal term 'illegal aliens' once but usually he refers to non citizens here illegally as 'immigrants'. Word smith that Obama is, it is possibly intentional to blur the lines.

Another thing that stood out in your article was Obama's willingness to saturate a sodden labor market with even more workers. Obama amended the Comprehesive Immigration Bill to allow guest workers into communities with up to 9% unemployment (It had been 11%). Just what the unemployed in those neighborhoods needed -more imported labor to compete with.

Our amendment would lower that unemployment rate to 9% of workers unemployed with a high school diploma or less. There is no reason any community with large pockets of unemployed Americans needs guest workers.

But communities with less than 9% unemployment do?

Barnesphoto, Require Cubans to be regulated by the same rules that apply to other legal immigrants? Good idea.

[ccbatson]

Slippery is a very nice and generous way of describing Obama's deceptive behavior.

[firstandten]

Oladub- You're being a little misleading with some of your comments about Obama and immigration




"Obama co-sponsored providing funding for social services for non citizens
OFFICIAL CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY: To establish a grant program to provide financial assistance to States and local governments for the costs of providing health care and educational services to non citizens."


SPONSOR'S INTRODUCTORY REMARKS: Sen. CLINTON: Immigration is a Federal responsibility. For too long the Federal Government has neglected its duty. My amendment addresses one of the clearest examples of this neglect because our failed national immigration policy has left our State and local governments to bear the brunt of the cost of immigration. Our schools, our hospitals, our other State and local services are being strained.

Hillary is recognizing the fact that local and state governments are bearing the brunt of Federal inaction. Sen Obama was a co-sponsor






"Another thing that stood out in your article was Obama's willingness to saturate a sodden labor market with even more workers. Obama amended the Comprehesive Immigration Bill to allow guest workers into communities with up to 9% unemployment (It had been 11%). Just what the unemployed in those neighborhoods needed -more imported labor to compete with."


SPONSOR'S INTRODUCTORY REMARKS: Sen. OBAMA: We have to ensure that communities where American unemployment rates are high will not experience unnecessary competition from guest workers. So to that end, this amendment strengthens the prevailing wage & freezes the guest worker program in communities with unemployment rates for low-skilled workers of 9% or greater. This amendment would establish a true prevailing wage for all occupations to ensure that guest workers are paid a wage that does not lower American wages. The [underlying bill S.2611] requires that employers advertise jobs to American workers at a prevailing wage before offering that job to a guest worker. And it requires that employers pay guest workers a prevailing wage. But the bill, currently, without the amendment, does not clarify how to calculate the prevailing wage for workers not covered by a collective bargaining agreement. That leaves most jobs and most workers unprotected.

I sort of liken this to the criticism Obama use to get when they said he supported the Iraq war. He didn't support the war but he supported funding for the war because not to do so would put our troops at risk since it was a done deal that there would be a war to fight.

Obama tends to be very careful with his wording, but looking at his overall position on the issue I still stand by his quote on the subject

[oladub]

firstandten, In Economics 101, we all learn about supply/demand and how one effects the other. If there is a shortage of labor, labor can demand higher wages with, or without, all sorts of government dependency programs. Allowing guest workers to settle anywhere where the unemployment isn't already 9% is flaming idiotic if one is trying to help American workers. Its nice to have a minimum wage but any Americans who are unemployed while illegal aliens hold down their former jobs are going to have to go on welfare if they are lucky. Back to supply/demand; unskilled American workers will have a harder time rising above minimum wage with this 9% guest worker policy and become a campesino like serf class. Obama should have co-sponsored lowering the guest worker limit to 3%, instead of 9%, if his goal was to better the lives of American unskilled workers.

Senator Clinton is correct that the federal government has a responsibility but it is not to coddle people who don't belong here at the expense of American workers. It is to observe already enacted laws to secure our borders, remove violators, and punish their employers. She has a better track record of buying cattle futures than of punishing Tyson.

The bit about excusing Obama's funding of the Iraq war is nonsense. Ron Paul said there was always six months of funding in the pipeline that could have been diverted from the war to extracting our troops safely from an illegal war. Nor does it explain mainsteam Democrats' sudden enthusiasm for a troop surge in Afghanistan and bombing Pakistani villages.

[ccbatson]

Try this neat trick as a litmus test....If the simple things are being ignored (securing the border to the extent that they are enforcing existing laws, building an approved and funded fence, etc), what are the odds that the people in power are sincere about the issue? BTW, this includes GWB as much as Obama and company.

[firstandten]

Oladub

I know we can debate numbers and percentages but senators don't work in a vacuum. I can't be sure but I bet that 9% was a compromise from the original 11% however of course the bill is moot since it didn't pass congress. Plus it was 2006 who thought then that unemployment would get close to 9% much less go over it by a huge margin

I believe you will always have problems with Obama policies because he's not Bob Barr or Ron Paul just like I wish he could be Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders.

But notice with the exception of Mr. Sanders those folks don't win statewide races and Bernie is kind of a unique situation.

My point with Obama is that I believe on most issues he is charting a prudent course. I believe he will be a more savvy, more disciplined and more populist version of President Clinton.


I don't think government has ever practiced econ 101, of course the common folks have to feel the effects of not dealing with the laws of supply and demand

[ccbatson]

Prudent and savy translate to cold, ruthless, and deceptive for Obama. Judging by liberals denial of reality with him, he does a fair job of it.

[Detroitej72]

Let me get this straight...liberals here oppose open borders and immigration? Or they just oppose it when it is the result of a Republican's error? You can't have both.

Only neo-con tools such as Hannity, Beck, Savage, and Rushies paint with such broad brushes.

I, and most so-called liberals I know oppose open borders. Contrary to what you've been indoctrinated to believe, left-leaning folks tend to support issues on a case by case basis. I know its hard for neo-cons to grasp this concept, since they blindly follow their party's line as ditto heads.

[ddaydetroit]

Ha savage made it on Britain's 'least wanted' blacklist
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090505/wl_uk_afp/britainimmigrationmideastrussiasexualityneonazi

[ccbatson]

Really?? So there are some liberals who oppose corporate taxes, bigger government, redistribution of wealth, the nanny state, unregulated abortion, gun control, etc.

I would like to here from a few of these so called open minded liberals.

In truth you have it backwards, coming from a self described conservative who opposes unregulated gun ownership, GWB/McCain style open borders and government growth.

[rb336]

Really?? So there are some liberals who oppose corporate taxes, bigger government, redistribution of wealth, the nanny state, unregulated abortion, gun control, etc.

I would like to here from a few of these so called open minded liberals.

In truth you have it backwards, coming from a self described conservative who opposes unregulated gun ownership, GWB/McCain style open borders and government growth.

the nanny state -- could you make a lamer comment?
is there unregulated abortion? where? moot comment
bigger govt -- yes, many of us are against it, especially the out-of-contol, incredibly wasteful military budget (yes, officials at the pentagon agree with that)
smarter government - good. wasteful - bad
corporate taxes -- why shouldn't they be taxed if they are treated like people in the courts? take away some of those rights and i'd maybe consider not taxing them.

as Jefferson stated, we should have a tax system that prevents the creation of an entrenched elite (aristocracy) That was one of his major arguments for the war of independence.

is it not just that those who benefit most from our society should be the ones who pay the most to keep it viable?

[Flanders]

Really?? So there are some liberals who oppose corporate taxes, bigger government, redistribution of wealth, the nanny state, unregulated abortion, gun control, etc.

I would like to here from a few of these so called open minded liberals.

In truth you have it backwards, coming from a self described conservative who opposes unregulated gun ownership, GWB/McCain style open borders and government growth.

I am personally opposed to abortion, but do not believe that I or anyone else has the right to impose their most often religious-based convictions on others who are pro-choice.

I am personally opposed to male homosexuality/bisexuality but not female, as there is no significant organ penetration/discharge of bodily fluids/orifices with females.But I do not believe that I or anyone else has the right to impose their most often religious-based convictions on others who are homosexual/bisexual. I am also unopposed to same sex marriage between consenting adults, as I believe that they have as much chance of a lifelong union as "straight" couples. Most are also quite capable of raising children to adulthood, IMO.

I have no public opinion on gun control, but personally believe that it can't be effectively controlled by our government, and that the NRA is comprised of many crazy paranoid members, most of whom possess waay too many weapons and ammo and some are "straining at the bit" to use them against their fellow US citizens who do not share their extreme RW fanatical viewpoints.

[ccbatson]

Odd...the 2 liberal's here are personally at odds with the ideology of their party for core principles like abortion, gun control, big government (socialistic/nanny state). Don't you see the problem with that?

Speaking for myself, my argument with the Republican party is that they are not conservative enough...no ideologic inconsistency here.

[Flanders]

Odd...the 2 liberal's here are personally at odds with the ideology of their party for core principles like abortion, gun control, big government (socialistic/nanny state). Don't you see the problem with that?

Speaking for myself, my argument with the Republican party is that they are not conservative enough...no ideologic inconsistency here.

Nope, I don't have to personally agree with everything the Democratic party leadership expoused or proposes, just most of it, and unlike the GOP, do not have to, else be labeled a traitor or a RINO/CINO. Look at the conservatives' villification of Kathleen Parker and the Dixie Chicks, for example, when they dared to publicly criticize the leadership of Bush, and Parker about Sarah Palin as being unqualified for VP. They are now after Spector for his recent party switch.

[ccbatson]

Emphasis is on CORE PRINCIPLES. If you don't agree with those, you are at odds with the party.

[Flanders]

Emphasis is on CORE PRINCIPLES. If you don't agree with those, you are at odds with the party.

"Core Principles" is a conservative buzzword, which indicates strong resistance to change, slow to react, inability to adapt, and relative inflexibility.

It is also why the GOP is having such difficulty finding a true inspirational leader who can best represent their so-called "core principles" because none are completely w/o human faults. The best that they can come up with right now, that most conservatives agree with, is not even a career politician.

[Detroitej72]

Emphasis is on CORE PRINCIPLES. If you don't agree with those, you are at odds with the party.

I have always considered myself an independent thinker. Its always the closed-minded right-wing tools who have called me a liberal. They seem to think anyone who disagrees with them must be an evil liberal.

I am pro-life, pro 2nd amendment, and pretty much a fiscal conservative as far as wasteful gov. spending. I also oppose the gov. spying into my personal life and stealing our civil liberties.

That said, I also do not oppose my taxes going to help folks who are not as well off as me, or having a difficult time finding work, as this is one of my core Christian beliefs.

[Detroitej72]

Ha savage made it on Britain's 'least wanted' blacklist
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090505/wl_uk_afp/britainimmigrationmideastrussiasexualityneonazi


Savage was on NPR's Talk of the Nation today and he was confrontational from the beginning, trying to pick a fight with the host, Neil Conen, calling him a liberal right off the bat. The whole time Conen was polite, never allowing himself to get into a pissing match with this obvious lunatic right-winger.

When Neil took a caller who questioned him, he started ranting about how the caller was a nobody, sitting in his pajamas in an asylum, and started crying that he had more important things to do than debate a looser. When the professional journalist host(Conen) politely told him he was free to go if he didn't want to speak politely, he promptly hung up.

The whole episode was pretty comical, but it spoke volumes about the kind of person Mikey is, a whinny, spoiled elitist who bails when he doesn't get his way.

[ccbatson]

Yeah..he is a bit of a blowhard. But is often dead on in his analysis and opinion. The inflammatory style is likely a tool to spark interest.

[Detroitej72]

Yeah..he is a bit of a blowhard. But is often dead on in his analysis and opinion. The inflammatory style is likely a tool to spark interest.

I guess in the words of that noted philosopher, P.T. Barnham, any publicity is good, as long as you spell my name correctly!

[rb336]

Yeah..he is a bit of a blowhard. But is often dead on in his analysis and opinion. The inflammatory style is likely a tool to spark interest.

show me ONE example of how he was ever dead on on anything, and provide proof. the guy is nothing but a typical right-wing hate monger. the fact that you tacitly approve of his methods says a great deal about you

[Big Dog]

Wgus!..............

[ccbatson]

His program recently aired on Fox pertaining to the Tea parties is dead on (one, very fresh example).

[ccbatson]

BTW, who do these supposed "hate mongers" hate?

[Detroitej72]

BTW, who do these supposed "hate mongers" hate?

Muslims, for one. See Mann Coulter's rants.

[ccbatson]

Radical muslims? Seeing as how they hate non muslims and take actions to kill us.....

Who else?

[Detroitej72]

Radical muslims? Seeing as how they hate non muslims and take actions to kill us.....

Who else?

Actually she said America should force all Muslims to convert to Christianity.

[ccbatson]

Out of context...try again, that was not the meaning. He has a cutting and sarcastic sense of humor that casts these fascietious comments in a different light.

[Detroitej72]

Out of context...try again, that was not the meaning. He has a cutting and sarcastic sense of humor that casts these fascietious comments in a different light.

Wrong, she proposes that in one of her irrational books. It states clearly her desires in the context of her warped mind.

[ccbatson]

Oops, my mistake, I thought you were referring to Steyn, not Coulter. She is a special case, and seems to be quite hateful...I agree. She does not represent the whole of conservatism however...and thank G-d.

[Detroitej72]

Rush is pretty hateful to liberals.... and anyone else who fails to see his narrow vision. And he sure made some hateful remarks about Michal J. Fox regarding his Parkinson's Disease.

[ccbatson]

"Pretty hateful towards liberals" is not proof of anything. What he said about Michael J Fox was not PC, but it was not hateful (and it happened to be true).

[rb336]

His program recently aired on Fox pertaining to the Tea parties is dead on (one, very fresh example).

if it was anything like his bit in nat. review, it was yet more pure unadulterated Faux News BS

[Lorax]

Michael the "Savage" Weener is another one of those socially retarded fascist nutsacks who need to be silenced on principle alone.

He claimed his right to free speech has been compromised by being banned from travel to the UK, which as a member of the EU, would render him ineligible to travel to any member nation in Europe.

He says he's going to sue the Home Secretary of the UK for having his name placed on a list of undesirables, such as terrorists, thugs, and other criminals.

Since most people, including the laws of the UK believe that speech has meaning, and consequences, maybe he should temper his hate speech toward muslims, gays, women, unions, the usual rogue's gallery/garden variety bigotry you see with most repugnicans.

Now if the UK could add George Tush, Prick Cheney and a few others to the list.

[ccbatson]

Sigh...Lorax is another liberal that has the definition of Fascism backwards.

Here is an idea for you Rb....watch the show before trying (unsuccessfully) to discredit it.

[Detroitej72]

"Pretty hateful towards liberals" is not proof of anything. What he said about Michael J Fox was not PC, but it was not hateful (and it happened to be true).

So you think M.J. Fox is faking his illness, since that is what your boy Rush said. I never thought you were that blind.

[jams]

Sigh...Lorax is another liberal that has the definition of Fascism backwards.

Here is an idea for you Rb....watch the show before trying (unsuccessfully) to discredit it.
Unlike your refusal to respond to the actual broadcast of GoLeft TV instead of the headlines.

[Lorax]

His program recently aired on Fox pertaining to the Tea parties is dead on (one, very fresh example).


Why not call it by it's proper name, "Teabagging Parties" which is what the right wing nut sacks were calling it until someone more educated in modern slang (namely the talking heads on MSNBC) explained to them that "teabagging" refers to male strippers dragging their jockstraps over the faces of the patrons!

Really is hysterical watching the repugs trying to back pedal on that one!

[Lorax]

Sigh...Lorax is another liberal that has the definition of Fascism backwards.

Sorry Batboy, wrong again.

May I suggest picking up a dictionary? If you are fortunate to have one handy, which I doubt, you'll discover the true meaning of words.

[Lorax]

So you think M.J. Fox is faking his illness, since that is what your boy Rush said. I never thought you were that blind.

Batty's had his nose shoved so far up the Caftan Warlord's behind, he is blinded by the lonely, diseased darkness.

We should all wonder what Brush Lintball's particular flavor of KoolAid tastes like, but I cherish my tastebuds, and don't need to be reminded of the open sewer of Calcutta.

[rb336]

Sigh...Lorax is another liberal that has the definition of Fascism backwards.

Here is an idea for you Rb....watch the show before trying (unsuccessfully) to discredit it.

since YOU, bats, have posted definitions of fascism that run counter to what every historian knows about it, how its creators defined it...

as to your last comment, since I read the same tea-part crap, why would I bother watching a bit on tv covering the same bs by the same person?

If you saw there was a segment about the Ayn Rand cult by the publisher of Skeptic, and you've already read his article, would you feel the need to see it on TV?

[ccbatson]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fascism

Better now Rb?

[rb336]

no, bats. mussolini's definition is more accurate. leave it to you to use the most simple-minded (and inaccurate) dictionary out there