In case you were wondering what you're supposed to fear...

[Johnlodge]

In case you were wondering what you're supposed to be afraid of this year, since Ebola Virus, SARS and Avian Flu have failed to kill you thus far, I present SWINE FLU!

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=7415611&page=1

[rb336]

In case you were wondering what you're supposed to be afraid of this year, since Ebola Virus, SARS and Avian Flu have failed to kill you thus far, I present SWINE FLU!

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Healthday/story?id=7415611&page=1

I subscribed to the emerging viruses listserve for years

[sarge]

Haven't heard anything about this since Gerald Ford was president!

[ccbatson]

Don't panic...put the incidence in context. Chances of a young healthy person getting it is less than 1 in a million, and the likelihood of dying (or even having lasting impairments) IF you had it are very small as well.

[rb336]

Don't panic...put the incidence in context. Chances of a young healthy person getting it is less than 1 in a million, and the likelihood of dying (or even having lasting impairments) IF you had it are very small as well.

like West Nile -- more people got seriously ill from the malathion used to kill the mosquitoes than the disease

[ccbatson]

Both very low numbers...Organophosphate poisoning is very very rare unless you bath in the stuff.

DDT would be far safer and better...but...liberals irrationally killed it (along with tens of millions of people dead from malaria in Africa).

[rb336]

Both very low numbers...Organophosphate poisoning is very very rare unless you bath in the stuff.

DDT would be far safer and better...but...liberals irrationally killed it (along with tens of millions of people dead from malaria in Africa).

yet another of your randian myths

[ccbatson]

I wasn't aware that Rand mentioned it at all.

[rb336]

I wasn't aware that Rand mentioned it at all.

no, it is your comment is wrapped in BS brought about by your randian dogma. Environmentalists, including the Sierra Club and Environmental Defense (the same group that started the anti-DDT fight) have supported targeted use of DDT in malaria-prone regions

[ccbatson]

"No"? She didn't mention it? Yet you call it Randian....curious. If it weren't coming from you (and in character) I would spend more time ripping that comment apart.

[Johnlodge]

Don't panic...put the incidence in context. Chances of a young healthy person getting it is less than 1 in a million, and the likelihood of dying (or even having lasting impairments) IF you had it are very small as well.

You must have mistaken my satirical parody of the yearly virus scare as panic.

[ccbatson]

No, I was not directing my criticism at you, rather the same hysteria that you were parodying.

[lilpup]

In case you were wondering what you're supposed to be afraid of this year, since Ebola Virus, SARS and Avian Flu have failed to kill you thus far, I present SWINE FLU!
Hey, we need a good epidemic to thin the ranks - too many people around nowadays, living longer than ever!

[barnesfoto]

other things to be afraid of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Na83zbo4qY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0pPEAdDn64&feature=PlayList&p=BB4FA75EB1F74120&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

[oladub]

"The A (H1N1) flu strain they had was quite unusual... It contained gene segments from North American swine, bird and human flu strains as well as one from Eurasian swine." - NY Times Only 1 out of 500 would get really sick from it. But that they expect it to maybe mutate and come back much worse this fall or winter.

Map of where cases have been reported.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&t=p&msa=0&msid=106484775090296685271.0004681a37b713f6b5950&ll=32.650649,-116.139221&spn=2.062781,3.99353&z=8

[Pam]

Hey barnes! Welcome back.

[MoparDan]

http://www.ksat.com/health/19274383/detail.html

Drugmakers: Swine Flu Strain Responds To Meds


POSTED: Friday, April 24, 2009
UPDATED: 6:09 pm CDT April 24, 2009



http://www.ksat.com/images/structures/buttons/button_enlarge.gif (http://www.ksat.com/health/19274383/detail.html#)


http://www.ksat.com/2007/0110/10713754_240X180.jpg
(http://www.ksat.com/health/19274383/detail.html#)



NEW YORK -- Makers of the two main antiviral flu treatments said Friday they've been in touch with world health authorities on the outbreak of swine flu in Mexico City and said the virus seems to respond to their medicines.

GlaxoSmithKline, which makes Relenza, and Roche, which makes Tamiflu, said they have been in touch with the World Health Organization as Mexico City shut down schools, libraries and other institutions to try to quell the outbreak, which has killed at least 20 people.

In the U.S., the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said tests show some of the Mexico victims died from the same new strain of swine flu that sickened eight people in Texas and California.

GlaxoSmithKline spokeswoman Sarah Alspach said the British drugmaker has been in touch with the World Health Organization on identifying the exact strain.

Roche spokesman Terry Hurley said the Swiss drug developer's emergency Tamiflu stockpile is on 24 hour stand-by. The company was contacted by the World Health Organization and is prepared to immediately deploy the stockpile if requested, he said.

Both drugmakers confirmed that the swine flu strain is sensitive to their drugs.

Both Relenza and Tamiflu have to be taken early, within a few days of the onset of symptoms, to be most effective. Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press (http://www.ksat.com/news/2455821/detail.html). All rights reserved.
==============================================
The two Texas cases were in Schertz, which is just north of San Antonio.

[gibran]

DDT safe? ask the scienctists who studied it's effects on the food chain and eagle population...gesh

[ccbatson]

Yes, please do....when you do, you will find that, on balance, it was more than just safe, it offered the chance to save tens of millions of human lives.

[Redford Kid]

Well I guess someone, however idiotic has to take the side that DDT was really benificial and benign.:p

[DetroitDad]

U.S. Declares Swine Flu Public Health Emergency

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30398682/?GT1=43001 - Includes videos


Government officials have declared a public health emergency in connection with the swine flu outbreak that has killed dozens in Mexico and sickened 20 in the U.S., said the nation’s director of Homeland Security Sunday.

Secretary Janet Napolitano also said border agents have been directed to begin passive surveillance of travelers from affected countries, with instructions to isolate anyone who appears actively ill with suspected influenza.

The number of cases confirmed in the United States by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is now 20, including eight New York City high school students. Other cases are in Ohio, California, Texas and Kansas. Patients have ranged in age from 7 to 54.

Government health officials expect to see more cases of swine flu here, including possibly serious infections, a senior CDC official said.

“We expect there to be a broader spectrum of disease here in the U.S.,” said Dr. Anne Schuchat, interim deputy director for the agency’s Science and Public Health Program. “I do fear that we will have deaths here.”

Napolitano said the emergency declaration is a warning, not a notice of imminent danger, similar to preparing for a hurricane.

"I wish we could call it a declaration of emergency preparedness,” Napolitano said.

Dr. Richard Besser, acting director of the CDC, said that compared to cases in Mexico, “what we’re seeing in this country is mild disease,” noting that the U.S. cases would not have been detected without increased surveillance.

CDC officials said they don’t yet have basic information about how the virus spreads, including how many cases each primary case might create, or how long it might take for them to be infected. However, agency officials believe the virus is spreading person-to-person. In the U.S., all the patients have recovered and only one patient was hospitalized.

Besser said he still can’t say why cases in U.S. are so much milder than the deadly cases in Mexico. There, the disease has killed up to 86 people and likely sickened up to 1,400 since April 13, said Mexico's health minister.

“The real important take away is that we have an outbreak of a new infectious disease that we’re addressing aggressively,” Besser said.

The incubation period for the virus is 24 to 48 hours, health officials said. President Barack Obama recently traveled to Mexico but the president’s health was never in any danger, said John Brennan, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security.

The president has received regular briefings from advisers on the swine flu outbreak and the White House readied guidance for Americans.

“The government can’t solve this alone; we need everybody to take some responsibility,” Napolitano said.

Besser urged Americans to practice frequent handwashing and to stay home if they feel sick. “If your children are sick, have a fever and flu-like illness, they shouldn’t go to school.”

Schuchat said symptoms that would trigger alarm include h igh fever, cough, sore throat, muscle aches, vomiting and diarrhea. But she cautioned those could also be signs of any number of respiratory diseases.

“There’s not a perfect test right now that will let a person, a member of the public or a doctor, know,” she said.

U.S. to screen travelers at borders
The U.S. will begin screening travelers at the nation’s borders and isolating people who are actively ill with suspected influenza, Napolitano said. No travel restrictions are issued currently, but that could change, she said.

CDC officials said Sunday they would begin handing out “yellow cards” at airports with information about signs, symptoms and ways to reduce the chance of acquiring the virus.

Health officials said the facts of the outbreak don’t yet warrant testing or quarantine of travelers from Mexico, but that that could change if the situation gets worse.

Anne Schuchat reiterated that the outbreak can’t be contained.

“We cannot stop this at the border,” she said, adding: “But we think there’s a lot we can do to limit the impact on health and to slow transmission.”

“We think that slowing transmission can have an impact on health,” she said.

Officials said Sunday they are considering whether to begin manufacture of a vaccine.

“At this point, there is not a vaccine for this swine flu strain,” Besser said.

Deaths in Mexico
Symptoms in the eight newly-confirmed cases in New York have been mild, said Health Commissioner Thomas Frieden. City health officials said more than 100 students at the St. Francis Preparatory School, in Queens, recently began suffering a fever, sore throat and aches and pains. Some of their relatives also have been ill.

Some St. Francis students had recently traveled to Mexico, The New York Times and New York Post reported Sunday.

The World Health Organization chief said Saturday that the strain has "pandemic potential," and it might be too late to contain a sudden outbreak.

Monitoring possible cases
State infectious-diseases, epidemiology and disaster preparedness workers have been dispatched to monitor and respond to possible cases of the flu. Gov. David Paterson said 1,500 treatment courses of the antiviral Tamiflu had been sent to New York City.

The city health department has asked doctors to be extra vigilant and test patients who have flu symptoms and have traveled recently to California, Texas or Mexico.

Investigators also were testing children who fell ill at a day care center in the Bronx. Two families in Manhattan also have contacted the city, saying they had recently returned ill from Mexico with flu symptoms, Frieden said.

[ccbatson]

2 points.

1. No significant resistance too DDT was ever documented.
2. It eradicated Malaria in the US.

[rb336]

2 points.

1. No significant resistance too DDT was ever documented.
2. It eradicated Malaria in the US.

actually, screens did. just ask walter reed.

you are right on #1, but the rest of SM's post was pretty much correct. the upswing in malaria in the congo and other wet parts of africa was tied to the choking out of several species of fish that ate mosquito larvae by some water plants introduced to the region as decorative flourishes for landscaping. they were "set free" during flooding and have been a major problem for the waterways ever since

[rb336]

2
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-06/uoia-tfk061308.php

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/04/AR2005060400130.html

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2005/july/ddtinsects.htm


Thanks. I hadn't read anything on this in Science or Nature, but i did do a quick look after i posted my reply to bats, and found this:

Annual Review of Entomology
Vol. 2: 227-246 (Volume publication date January 1957)
http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.en.02.010157.001303

wow -- that was a known problem half a century ago

and
Science 27 September 2002:
Vol. 297. no. 5590, pp. 2253 - 2256
DOI: 10.1126/science.1074170

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/297/5590/2253

before I subscribed

" DDT-R, a gene conferring resistance to DDT, is associated with overtranscription of a single cytochrome P450 gene, Cyp6g1. Transgenic analysis of Cyp6g1 shows that overtranscription of this gene alone is both necessary and sufficient for resistance. Resistance and up-regulation in Drosophila populations are associated with a single Cyp6g1 allele that has spread globally. This allele is characterized by the insertion of an Accord transposable element into the 5' end of the Cyp6g1 gene"

[Johnlodge]

I saw my first Bald Eagle a few years back while canoeing in Pennsylvania. Thanks DDT ban!

[rb336]

I saw my first Bald Eagle a few years back while canoeing in Pennsylvania. Thanks DDT ban!

i'll never forget seeing one by the zoo, and one on belle isle

[ccbatson]

In the lab, with Drosophola (lab flies), not real world Mosquito's. Science being misapplied by liberals..again.

The view of the bald eagle in the zoo was likely much better absent the tens of millions of human beings dead from Malaria.

[Johnlodge]

In the lab, with Drosophola (lab flies), not real world Mosquito's. Science being misapplied by liberals..again.

The view of the bald eagle in the zoo was likely much better absent the tens of millions of human beings dead from Malaria.

The use of DDT for public health use in Malaria prone countries is not restricted by any sort of international ban. So what is the point of your argument?

[Detroitej72]

The use of DDT for public health use in Malaria prone countries is not restricted by any sort of international ban. So what is the point of your argument?

He has no reply, his neo-con handlers didn't provide him a script for this line of questioning! :D

[rb336]

In the lab, with Drosophola (lab flies), not real world Mosquito's. Science being misapplied by liberals..again.

The view of the bald eagle in the zoo was likely much better absent the tens of millions of human beings dead from Malaria.

Drosophola are fruit flies, not relegated to labs. is it reasonable to assume the same possibility exists in flies outside the lab? certainly. have malarial mosquitos developed the ability to metabolize DDT? yes:

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/26/8855.abstract?sid=9156a310-a90f-49b9-b7bf-029149d0215b

"Anopheles gambiae, which has been the major mosquito vector of the malaria parasite Plasmodium falciparum in Africa, has over the years developed resistance to insecticides including dieldrin, 1,1-bis(p-chlorophenyl)-2,2,2-trichloroethane (DDT), and pyrethroids."

and from the journal Pest Management Science:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112601827/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

the fact remains that:
1) Malaria was beaten by screens in the US
2) DDT is nasty stuff, and YOUR claims about it being banned are wrong, and its use is supported by the very groups you claim banned it
3) The increase in malaria can be traced to invasive water plants and the demise of larvae-eating fish caused by them
4) good mosquito netting has shown to be more effective than DDT and has fewer side effects

[rb336]

Game, set, match

[ccbatson]

"Possible"? Sure...."Actual"? Not so....hence the description of this being a misapplication of science or pseudoscience.

Read Mark Steyn's book "America Alone", and Mark Levin's "Liberty and Tyranny" for an introduction to this liberal quagmire.

[Johnlodge]

"Possible"? Sure...."Actual"? Not so....hence the description of this being a misapplication of science or pseudoscience.

Read Mark Steyn's book "America Alone", and Mark Levin's "Liberty and Tyranny" for an introduction to this liberal quagmire.

Batson, DDT is not banned for prevention of Malaria. End of argument. No where else to go with it, moot point. Thanks for playing.

[ccbatson]

Not in the US, but circumstances led to the unavailability in Africa...WHERE IT WAS/IS MOST NEEDED.

Furthermore, your argument suggests that because it was not banned in the US (technically), that the sham that indicted it as a poison is OK? Not so moot in that light.

[Detroitej72]

"Possible"? Sure...."Actual"? Not so....hence the description of this being a misapplication of science or pseudoscience.

Read Mark Steyn's book "America Alone", and Mark Levin's "Liberty and Tyranny" for an introduction to this liberal quagmire.

There are some good examples of pseudo science for you.

[rb336]

Not in the US, but circumstances led to the unavailability in Africa...WHERE IT WAS/IS MOST NEEDED.

Furthermore, your argument suggests that because it was not banned in the US (technically), that the sham that indicted it as a poison is OK? Not so moot in that light.

once again, it is NOT a sham that indicated it was poison (first off, it is, BY DEFINITION, poison), that it was wiping out valuable species, etc. was very well founded science. interesting that the species it was blamed for endangering (esp. bald eagles and ospreys) started bouncing back at the same time DDT levels in fish started to decline

[ccbatson]

Sorry...a bug poison? Yes....a mammal (or Human) poison? No way.

[d.mcc]

Mad Cow...Bird Flu, Swine flu...

What's next? Cat scratch fever???

[Stosh]

Sorry...a bug poison? Yes....a mammal (or Human) poison? No way.

I'd be willing to ask the goverment for a special permit to allow you to use DDT in your yard only, as you love it so much. Let your kids and dogs roll around on the grass, have picnics, then we'll see how you feel about it.

[rb336]

Sorry...a bug poison? Yes....a mammal (or Human) poison? No way.

Wrong again.
From http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/pest/effects.html#human

"When DDT gets into our bodies, it is stored primarily in such fatty organs as the adrenals, testes, and thyroid. DDT is also stored in smaller concentrations in the liver and kidneys.
http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/pest/dot_clear.gif

DDT concentrations are especially high in human milk. Milk production depends heavily on the use of stored body fat, and this is where DDT tends to stay in our bodies. http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/pest/dot_clear.gif
So exactly how much DDT can my body tolerate before I should really start worrying? That depends on how much you weigh. At concentration above 236 mg DDT per kg of body weight, you'll die. Concentration of 6-10 mg/kg leads to such symptons as headache, nausea, vomiting, confusion, and tremors. "

If it sounds, walks, quacks, etc. etc.

so go ahead, Bats, spray your lawn with DDT, let your children play in it, let your wife be exposed to it, let her nurse your children
QED

[ccbatson]

Inert fat soluble materials are still inert (not poisonous to humans).

Guess what? lots of inert stuff is stored in human fatty tissue, are you worried about that as well?

[Detroitej72]

Let's all just drink a glass of DDT tonight!

[Flanders]

(What kind of people would take a photo of their kid licking an ugh!! pig's snout anyway??) :eek::eek::eek::eek:

948

[rb336]

Inert fat soluble materials are still inert (not poisonous to humans).

Guess what? lots of inert stuff is stored in human fatty tissue, are you worried about that as well?

you just keep blathering on bats. all the evidence, yet again, clearly contradicts you

[ccbatson]

It is only blather to those that can't comprehend it, or are in denial, or both. Those are simple scientific truisms applied to the situation via deductive reasoning.

[rb336]

It is only blather to those that can't comprehend it, or are in denial, or both. Those are simple scientific truisms applied to the situation via deductive reasoning.


deducing from what to what? every time someone provides verifiable info directly contradicting what you say, you decide that that wasn't really the topic. DDT is not inert. it is harmful, and the studies linked to in this forum attest to that. what do you have to offer? nothing but blather (voluble nonsensical or inconsequential talk or writing m-w dictionary. in other words you use volume of posts and make proclamations that are inconsequential because they ignore the facts) and thinly-veiled insults

[ccbatson]

That inert materials are stored in fat as well as water soluble body stores, and that DDT is an inert material in humans...that is the from what too what that you are asking for (and was clear in the first post on the subject).

[rb336]

That inert materials are stored in fat as well as water soluble body stores, and that DDT is an inert material in humans...that is the from what too what that you are asking for (and was clear in the first post on the subject).

DDT is harmful to humans, not as much as some pesticides, but it is harmful. to claim otherwise is just plaine moronic. it was classified by REAGAN'S EPA as a carcinogen, it has been shown to be an endocrine disrupter in humans. I'll take the Stockholm Convention on Persistent Organic Pollutants' word over yours any day

[ccbatson]

A bureaucratic political entity like the EPA is not a scientific source (to them, CO2 is a pollutant). Easily debunked as there is no research supporting DDT in reasonable levels (or any levels) to be a human carcinogen. No data exists pertaining to human endocrinologic abnormalities with In Vivo levels either. Some endocrinologic effects were observed in Avians (birds), and these results were blown way out of proportion.

Try again libs.

[ccbatson]

Same argument..one coerced, politically biases and motivated bureaucracy, or 1000...consensus is not science.

It is true that it isn't banned, but it is also true that it is not in use to any significant degree. Why? Nobody is willing to produce it in volume and at an affordable cost because of the radical environmentalists here.

The argument that you make regarding the fact that it isn't banned strongly contradicts your arguments that it is poisonous (and therefore should be banned). Thought I would point that out to you, as you missed it while being distracted by your foot getting lodged in your mouth.

[ccbatson]

Look deeper at the roots of the lack of funds and infrastructure...you will find radical misguided liberal environmentalists at that root. Are nets cheaper? Sure. Are they as effective? Not even close.

[rb336]

Bats, do you ever have anything resembling facts to offer?

[Detroitej72]

Look deeper at the roots of the lack of funds and infrastructure...you will find radical misguided liberal environmentalists at that root. Are nets cheaper? Sure. Are they as effective? Not even close.

Why don't you show some proof of the power these radical misguided liberal environmentalists hold over Africa? I suspect I'll be waiting a long time for it.

If liberals had as much power over Africa as you claim, they'd have stopped the genicide and ethnic clensing, since those are also causes that are near and dear to liberals.

[ccbatson]

90 percent as a standalone figure does not tell you whether it is comparatively effective relative to DDT...it is not, BTW.

[rb336]

perhaps, bats, people might develop a bit of respect for you if you actually provided some back-up for what you say

[rb336]

actually, bats is not totally wrong -- studies in the solomon islands show that, but they also show that using both nets and ddt is most effective, and use of nets reduces the need for ddt

[ccbatson]

Thanks slim...you knew I was correct all along. Proves many points beyond just DDT.

[rb336]

he never has sources since he is usually talking from an ideological perspective rather than a fact-based one. facts get in the way of dogma. in this very particular part of this particular cnversation he is slightly correct, but far from entirely right. his other comments, however, have been proven wrong via posted sources for which he has no answer.

[ccbatson]

I love it...you admit you were wrong, but then try and lay blame on the person that had it right in the first place. Double points for me (for being right, and for having you embarrass yourselves out of bitter defeat).

[rb336]

I love it...you admit you were wrong, but then try and lay blame on the person that had it right in the first place. Double points for me (for being right, and for having you embarrass yourselves out of bitter defeat).


where was I wrong? I wasn't. I provided sources to back what I said. I guess when you have finally managed to get something partially right (which, in case you didn't notice, I agreed with AND backed YOU up with a source) for the first time (esp in this discussion, which is in an area you actually claim exertise), you have to giveyourself double points

[ccbatson]

Happens I win all of them..THIS INCLUDED..a win is a win.