Railroad tunnel

[larrym]

Am I the only one who did not know about the railroad tunnel under the river?

[vetalalumni]

Was, or is there still, an under-the-river tunnel to Zug Island?

[texorama]

Am I the only one who did not know about the railroad tunnel under the river?

Maybe you could post a link that tells us more about it.

[jcole]

Am I the only one who did not know about the railroad tunnel under the river?

I don't think you're the ONLY one, but maybe one of the few.:p

[larrym]

If I had known I would probably have gotten in trouble, I was quite adventerous and considered myself a great urban explorer when I was young and foolish. There is video of a train coming out of it on youtube and if you look at google maps you can find the other end of it in windsor.

[jcole]

It's pretty cool to think that they built that and the car tunnel so long ago, and they still are in use.

[Andrew in Windsor]

The rail tunnel was built in 1910. The car Tunnel in 1929, opening in 1930.

[larrym]

The last time I was through the car tunnel I swore it would, indeed, be the last time. Between the claustophobia and the water running down the walls, that was it for me!:)

[douglasm]

I can't find any pictures on the web of the tunnel, but memory says it was operated by electric engines until sometime in the early 50's, right? I believe when electrification ended the locos went to Cleveland Union Terminal but I may be wrong.

One major problem with the current bores are they aren't tall or wide enough. They'll take double stacked containers, but not the new hi-cube double stacks, as witnessed from this Windsor Star article from last June:

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/story.html?id=02c4ec5e-814f-49f0-b710-bc088c97447f

It's the same basic problem (on a smaller scale) that forced the GTW/CN to continue with a carfloat operation between Port Huron and Sarnia until the new tunnel was built.

I think Andrew has a picture of the old Canadian Pacific station in Windsor that was just south of the tunnel mouth. Burned down a couple of years ago......

[stasu1213]

I would be nice if the amtrack train could run through that tunnel. You could take a train from Detroit to Toronto non-stop.

[douglasm]

At one time that was the plan, in the same way the Niagara Rainbow ran from MCS, through the tunnel, to Buffalo. There was talk about resuming service east from Detroit through Ontario a few years ago, using the ex CP station in Windsor, not too far from the tunnel mouth. BTW, I found this picture on the web of the Rainbow exiting the tunnel......

51

[Stosh]

I think that the customs agents in Windsor would have a little problem with that theory. Non stop that is.

[douglasm]

So would using the CP station, seeing as it burned down four or five years ago......

[larrym]

Hard to believe no one had sense enough to check the dimensions of the tunnel and the load before they sent it down the track.

[rb336]

What happened to the "jobs tunnel" folks who wanted to convert the tunnel into a truck crossing?

[AQCE]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't this tunnel the same reason that Matty Maroun owns MCS yet does nothing to protect or restore it? He bought the property for the tunnel, not the station; correct? It's just a bonus that he can sit there and watch the station deteriorate while making money off of it from movie producers wishing to use it for apocalyptic footage and/or wait for the city to pay for the demo costs. All he really wants is the property. Raises the question why the citizens/visitors of the city are having their parking costs raised while the city refuses to heavily ticket these deliquent building owners. Shameful.

[gravitymachine]

i am reminded of the tunnel's existance daily. but at least, unlike a road crossing they rarely blow their horns entering. and fyi, only the eastern tube is in use these days. often you will see an east bound train waiting behind the MCS for a westbounder to clear the tunnel before entering.

also, an acquaintance who works for customs and border patrol in the area told me that border jumpers get flattened by trains in there from time to time

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, that's been my theory about the "Jobs Tunnel" and Matty's ownership of MCS. If you wanted to turn the Detroit River Tunnel into a trucking tunnel, you'd need a staging area to do construction. And the abandoned railroad yards behind MCS would be the perfect location for that. I believe Matty saw the Detroit River Tunnel Partnership as a threat to his bridge, and so he bought MCS just to deny them a staging area. He could care less about the building. (And so Cockrel's idea to use federal funds to make Matty pay up or shut up don't matter; Matty would be pleased to own an empty lot if it still frustrated the DRTP's plans.)

Is Matty's plan working though? Who knows. Yesterday, Canadian Pacific sold off controlling interest in the tunnel to the group of investors behind the scheme, Borealis, the investors who run the Ontario municipal employees'' retirement fund. Expect more news shortly.

Honestly, I think all the plans are terrible.

1) The "jobs tunnel" would route a lot of slow, chugging traffic through Corktown spewing particulate emissions, fence off for international security, and likely create a barrier slicing through Corktown and Mexicantown.

2) The Del Rey crossing would slice through a pristine nature preserve on the Ontario side, which the last undeveloped parcel for miles in that area.

3) The twin span would consolidate Matty Moroun's power while routing much more traffic through a part of the city that's actually been a success story.

And what do we get from all this? A few jobs? Lots of pollution? Noise? I don't see what's so great for the region about having more vehicles passing through. My 2 cents.

[Andrew in Windsor]

The "jobs tunnel" idea is dead. Their office in Windsor is recently closed up and for lease, and just yesterday CP dumped 2/3 of its share in the tunnel project.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/04/01/cp-detroit-tunnel-borealis.html

Here's the station that burned down. It was originally built as part of the MCRR line.

http://www.internationalmetropolis.com/?p=87

Built in 1911, it went up by arson in November 1996.

[Gistok]

... yes but which is worse... having a slow progression of trucks lined up (sometimes for upto a mile)spewing their emissions while waiting a long time to cross the border, or having a steady stream of trucks moving across the border with a minimum of waiting time.

Of course it's not just the crossing, but the wait time to clear customs...

[Sandhouse]

I doubt the "jobs tunnel" scheme is dead. OMERS (the Canadian pension fund) is still trying to promote it, although their activity at present consists only of issuing a press release twice a year to remind people they still exist. The Canadian Pacific would still like a full-height tunnel to the US to compete with CN's at Sarnia, but it will take them a while before they want to devote the capital to it, and their sale of their share to OMERS suggests it's on the back burner.

Still, the idea of converting the existing rail tunnel to trucks, once a new rail tunnel is bored beneath it, might be workable, if street access to the Detroit end can be arranged. In volume, it could never compete with the Bridge, but it would provide competition for a noticeable fraction of traffic now using the Bridge. (The tunnel probably wouldn't be open to auto traffic generally, but only to subscribers such as auto companies or other heavy shippers.) The Maroun/Kilpatrick axis seems to have tried to block access to the tunnel by refusal to make City of Detroit land available to it (I'm unsure as to just what real estate was involved).

Historically, the tunnel was a joint Michigan Central/CPR property, worked by electric engines until Dieselization around 1952. The tunnel was built in a shipyard in Ecorse, and floated in segments to its site, and sunk into a trench dredged in the river bottom, and then covered to keep it from floating up. It is made of cast iron (recycled railroad-car wheels) and so can never be enlarged. This is why a new tunnel must be dug if more height is wanted. Because the tunnel is so close to the river bottom, ships are ordered not to drop anchor over it.

[iheartthed]

I think that the customs agents in Windsor would have a little problem with that theory. Non stop that is.

The customs agents could perform their checks on the Detroit side before passengers boarded the trains.

[Hornwrecker]

There are a few photos of the tunnel, and some of its construction, at the LOC's website, Detroit Publishing Co collection.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/d?detr:0:./temp/~ammem_BrCi:

(If this link doesn't work, then browse by subject > tunnels: http://rs6.loc.gov/detroit/dethome.html)

[fryar]

My dad worked with a guy once who told a very similar story when it was mentioned I was living in Detroit. His brother and father had successfully immigrated to the US, and he ended up making his way here via the tunnel.

[Russix]

http://www.detroitchamber.com/region/Work-in-Detroit/Education/232-detroit-river-tunnel-partnership

[Hermod]

The customs agents could perform their checks on the Detroit side before passengers boarded the trains.

The US does this with Bermuda and the Bahamas.

So that flights from these close-in airports can go into airports without international terminals or with inadequate space in their international terminals, the US stations immigration and customs personnel in these countries to pre-screen the passengers as they board the flights.

Switzerland does this on the TGV from Paris to Lausanne. The Swiss personnel board the train at the last stop in France and conduct all their business while the train goes to Lausanne. When you get to Switzerland, you just get off the train. I believe that this is done by other European countries as well.

[cosine]

Here are a couple of photos of the tunnel from Shorpy--

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9257

http://www.shorpy.com/node/8647

[iheartthed]

The US does this with Bermuda and the Bahamas.

So that flights from these close-in airports can go into airports without international terminals or with inadequate space in their international terminals, the US stations immigration and customs personnel in these countries to pre-screen the passengers as they board the flights.

Switzerland does this on the TGV from Paris to Lausanne. The Swiss personnel board the train at the last stop in France and conduct all their business while the train goes to Lausanne. When you get to Switzerland, you just get off the train. I believe that this is done by other European countries as well.

On the Eurotrain between London and Paris you go through customs before you board the train as well.

Also, since the attempted underwear bombing last X-mas, many/most/all(?) flights coming into the U.S. from Europe require you to go through customs before boarding the plane.

[jsmyers]

A new one is in the works:

http://www.crgateway.com/

It will allow double stacked containers. The current tunnel doesn't.

[Augustiner]

Switzerland does this on the TGV from Paris to Lausanne. The Swiss personnel board the train at the last stop in France and conduct all their business while the train goes to Lausanne. When you get to Switzerland, you just get off the train. I believe that this is done by other European countries as well.
Most of Europe is part of the Schengen agreement now, so customs checks aren't required at the borders anymore. I believe Switzerland is part of the agreement too; I took the train back and forth between Munich and Zürich a few times last year, and never had to pass through any kind of screening.

[Hypestyles]

what are the options for local, state, or federal gov't to purchase or sieze the land back from Moroun for redevelopment..

[mcsdetroitfriend]

what are the options for local, state, or federal gov't to purchase or sieze the land back from Moroun for redevelopment..

If the Gov't ever got control of MCS it'd be gone quick....

[mcsdetroitfriend]

"The tunnel clearance was enlarged once in 1994 and can’t be further expanded."

Interesting any body have some photos or links about this?

[douglasm]

I believe the current tunnel does allow for double stacks, doesn't it? The problem is with the newer oversized containers that won't double stack through the tube. There was a thread a couple years ago about a train with oversized containers that didn't fit.........well, they DID fit, but when they got to Windsor they were a bit smushed.

[MikeM]

"The tunnel clearance was enlarged once in 1994 and can’t be further expanded."

Interesting any body have some photos or links about this?


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BOTTLENECK+REMOVED+AT+KEY+RAIL+GATEWAY-a015422080

[Hardhat]

Nice find Mike.

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, they bored out the top of one of the tunnels. But it still can't accommodate double-stacked oversizes.

This article is eight years old but tells the story as it stood then.

http://www2.metrotimes.com/arts/story.asp?id=4555

[1KielsonDrive]

Was, or is there still, an under-the-river tunnel to Zug Island?

Never............

[1KielsonDrive]

An old picture. One of my highrailing trips into the tunnel. Of course, all pre - 09/11.

[Ltdave]

the tunnel in port huron (the first) was the first sub-aqueous tunnel in the world when i opened in 1898...

the new tunnel finished in 1993 was in a toss-up between port huron/sarnia and detroit/windsor. CN promised that there wouldnt be any jobs lost when they finished the tunnel (AAR rules require all rolling stock to undergo an inspection when it changes rail (ownership) but that lasted all of about 6 months before they started to close the car shops in port huron...

the inter-modal cars may clear but if they arent in the underslung cars they wont fit. the hi-cube cars are too long to make the grade change and still clear...

for a while (mid-late 90s, i dont recall exactly anymore) there was a blue water international that ran from toronto to chicago through port huron. after 9/11 the customs and border inspections became too onerous to continue the practice and the run was ended. this was already a re institution of a similar train run from many years earlier...

[douglasm]

We're having the same trouble out here between Washington and British Columbia.

What would be the possibility of lowering the floor and using low profile steel ties in the Detroit/Windsor tunnel. BNSF did that with the 8 mile long Cascade Tunnel a few years ago, and although it delayed service through the bore, they never had to suspend it.

[jon]

cp (i think) has been planning a new tunnel for a long time. the work is being planned by hdr out of chicago. my impression is that the old tunnel will stay in place (for upcoming passenger rail perhaps) and the new tunnel will be built below the first (weird huh?).

[MikeM]

http://www.crgateway.com/Home.aspx

8635

[1KielsonDrive]

Great posts as usual, MikeM. Always informative and well researched. Thanks.

[Downriviera]

If the new rail tunnel is built, the old one could be used for cars and trucks, right? And if thats the case, we wouldn't need another bridge? Just wondering.

[Magnatomicflux]

If the new rail tunnel is built, the old one could be used for cars and trucks, right? And if thats the case, we wouldn't need another bridge? Just wondering.

It could, but there's absolutly no-way Windsor would let that happen. The city put alot of effort into making sure we didn't have a freeway running thru the center of the city. We don't have the space on this side anyways.
I'm almost certain CP plans on using the old tunnel as a back up. And if Ontario ever gets off it's ass and turns the old CASO/MCR line into HSR, that tunnel would be needed to keep the freight and passenger rail seperate.

No matter what CP plans to do with it, Windsor will kill any attempts to convert it for vehicles.

[marcwigle]

An old picture. One of my highrailing trips into the tunnel. Of course, all pre - 09/11.

Someone couldn't spell "boundary". ;-)

[1KielsonDrive]

Someone couldn't spell "boundary". ;-)
It might be the French-Canadian spelling. Or, maybe a train was rumbling in their direction and they hurried to get into one of the crossovers and out of the way. Ha, ha. Funny thing about this picture - I don't remember who took it. I only remember the three of us high-railing on this occasion.

[BRAZZMAN]

Sorry if I missed anybody saying just where the tunnel entrance is on the Detroit side. I believe you can see it from the Bagley Street overpass just before Bagley continues past the Honeybee Market and then on towards the Mexican Village Restaurant. You have to look south from the railing. Looking north from the bridge is the Michigan Central Train Depot.

[highjinx]

8670

I found this pic some time ago; though I do not know who took it or where I found it, the caption that was tagged to it claim that this was a picture of the last steam locomotive train to use the tunnel in 1953.
My father had worked for New York Central, so we were able to ride the trains for free back then, and we did go through this tunnel many times on our way to and from upstate New York; and as a kid, it was one spooky ride through that tunnel. Sure wish I could take that spooky ride one last time.

[highjinx]

Traveling through that tunnel on the Detroit to New York via the Canadian route that N.Y.C. took back in the day, I got to once see this very sign for a brief moment as our train past by that area; though I traveled through that tunnel all so many times each year while I was growing up, I only got to see the sign that that one fading time.

How often I thought it would be so cool to go on an adventure into the tunnel to this point and do exactly what you and your friends did. Thanks for having the moxie to do what I only dreamed of doing.

I went on a lot adventures in my life, but this one would have been my Mt. Everest if I only had the nads to have done it back then. What the great memories the "four" of you must have of this day...hey there had to be someone taking the picture right?

[highjinx]

Come on, you know they spelled it incorrectly so that if any fools would venture down there would see it was spelled wrong would go back out and tell them so and get busted; hey, it was a messed way of thinking back then...LMAO!