Michigan Central Depot ideas

[E hemingway]

It seems like the answer to every blighted building in Detroit is either tear it down or completely rehab it. It appears that a complete rehab of the Michigan Central Depot is not likely in this economy and in this city, but sudden demolition is not the answer either. This thread is all about the third, fourth and fifth options.

What are your ideas for the Michigan Central Depot? Feel free to post any out-of-the-box, off-the-wall idea that comes to mind. Yeah, these will probably be just pie-in-the-sky thoughts, but we as a community should be putting a lot more thought into what we can do with something as big as Michigan Central Depot before we demolish it.

My idea, turn it into a ruin park like Lowell originally suggested the city do with all of its abandoned skyscrapers. Secure the building enough so people can walk in certain places of it, even let them go all the way to the roof and take in the views. It's already a tourist attraction, why not capitalize on it. Let Metro Parks run it since there isn't a Metro Park in the city and we pay for parks that are mostly in the exurbs. Let artists put temporary works of art on it as way of beautifying it and making it something we can be proud of at least some of the time.

That's my crazy idea. What's yours?

[E hemingway]

I like that idea Daytwa. The only way I would amend it is turn the ground floor into a park/historic museum and then offer the upper floors to a developer. There might be interest in creating residential or office space there if there is a viable institution on the ground floor.

[DetroitDad]

-Start with the buildings along Michigan. What is popular for rentals right now is cheap apartments above store fronts. New buildings and rehabbing what is on those two blocks between 14th and 17th could be done by large developers or individual entrepreneurs with plans for the retail space. The retail that would need to go here would have to be complement each other, similar to how the auto shops already on Michigan Ave. provides customers to the restaurants while they wait for their cars to be fixed.

-The park would have to be made into a good landscaped park again, serving multiple uses. Playgrounds, rentable picnic shelters, and athletic track stations could be built for Corktown residents.

-Small starter single family housing, row houses, and brownstone style homes would be built surrounding the park on the East and West.

-The old book depository could have a many uses that should be explored based on the economy. A grocery store could be possible, as could a parking garage, lofts, or warehouse space. Demolition could also be an option. if the building is that bad, and the space could be utilized for neighborhood expansion in the future. The North end of the warehouse block could be utilized for parking or more homes fronting the new Roosevelt Park.

-Rose Street should be eliminated to provide an extra block of housing.

-The old hotel on 14th could be used for apartment space or a community center, but demolition of the back two wings may be better off demolished for secured parking or gardening/play space, and only the front portion saved.

-Restoration of Michigan Central Station itself would be dependant on the success of the surrounding area, and would be founded by the rent and sale of the other properties surrounding the park. Ideally the first floor station would be renovated first, occupied by multi-use office/work space at first, but eventually switching to retail later on.

-The waiting room would be rented out similar to the GM Winter Garden for events, and the concourse would be used as a grand ballroom for concerts and wedding receptions. It may or may not be possible to install room dividers in these large spaces.

-The front entrance of the station should be used for drop offs and some parking, an area should be provided for wedding or other gatherings.

-The rear entrance should be accessible to parking by a mezzanine, with the rail tracks no longer abutting up to the structure.

-It may be possible for housing or storage space in the empty rail lots, or parking.

-The tower itself should be used for office and residential mixed, and provide an atmosphere similar to a Western Lafayette Park.

-Quite garden trails for seniors to walk, or for dog walking should surround the lower lying areas of the building, as well as a pool or rental picnic shelter in the old cab stand area. Parking should occupy the streetcar area to the East.


When building an urban neighborhood, the following should be considered:


The neighborhood has a discernible center. This is often a square or a green and sometimes a busy or memorable street corner. A transit stop would be located at this center.
Most of the dwellings are within a five-minute walk of the center, an average of roughly 1/4 mile or 1,320 feet (0.4 km).
There are a variety of dwelling types — usually houses, rowhouses, and apartments — so that younger and older people, singles, and families, the poor, and the wealthy may find places to live.
At the edge of the neighborhood, there are shops and offices of sufficiently varied types to supply the weekly needs of a household.
A small ancillary building or garage apartment is permitted within the backyard of each house. It may be used as a rental unit or place to work (for example, an office or craft workshop).
An elementary school is close enough so that most children can walk from their home.
There are small playgrounds accessible to every dwelling — not more than a tenth of a mile away.
Streets within the neighborhood form a connected network, which disperses traffic by providing a variety of pedestrian and vehicular routes to any destination.
The streets are relatively narrow and shaded by rows of trees. This slows traffic, creating an environment suitable for pedestrians and bicycles.
Buildings in the neighborhood center are placed close to the street, creating a well-defined outdoor room.
Parking lots and garage doors rarely front the street. Parking is relegated to the rear of buildings, usually accessed by alleys.
Certain prominent sites at the termination of street vistas or in the neighborhood center are reserved for civic buildings. These provide sites for community meetings, education, and religious or cultural activities.
The neighborhood is organized to be self-governing. A formal association debates and decides matters of maintenance, security, and physical change. Taxation is the responsibility of the larger community.

[E hemingway]

Wow, DetroitDad. You put a bit of thought into that. It reads like a long-term master plan for the neighborhood instead of a just what to do about Michigan Central Depot. I like it. I also agree with Daytwa about thinking realistically, but I wanted this to be more like a brainstorming session, I guess. No idea is too outlandish to talk about right now as far as I am concerned.

[detourdetroit]

I agree with this sentiment.

It is pretty clear that the state of the building is such that restoring it to its former glory would be cost prohibitive, even in a great economy. The best chance for doing something comprehensive with serious funding may have been lost with the casinos building elsewhere. Just take a look at the MGM footprint, bulk and height and make the comparison. What is so ironic about MCS is that one of the few people in the region that actually has the resources to pull off a restoration of the building currently owns it. Only in Detroit...

That said, it's important to understand however, that Michigan Central presents yet another opportunity to build understanding for a third way to progressively manage historic assets. As opposed to the Lafayette which because of size, condition and proximity to the CBD is much better candidate for renovation, MCS could show us a way to tell a new story about Detroit. As mentioned below, the building in its current state generates income for the city and the state through its use as a movie backdrop and tourist destination. We lose those dollars with the building gone. It would be interesting to do a thumbnail analysis of how much economic activity the building currently generates.

Of course I wouldn't be opposed to putting the building out for an RFP to see if anyone can come up with something else, but I think a more productive use of the preservation community's time is to make a case for how the building, even in repose, as others have suggested, is good for Detroit's soul. Instead of being ashamed by MCS, we should use it to tell a different story about the city. What about these uses:

The backdrop for an outdoor concert venue?
Continuing use for the movie industry?
Interpretive tourist destination?
Armature for world class light installation?

Are the Romans embarrassed to have the Colosseum, Forum or Baths of Caracalla in their midst? Are the Peruvians aghast at the ruinous state of Machu Picchu? No, vestiges of societies' past informs and bolsters the richness of life today.

Stabilize it? Yes. Secure it? Yes. Clean it? Yes. Interpret it? Yes. Demolish it? No.

[Gsgeorge]

This is my idea from the other thread.


I am sad to see that this demolition is being rushed through, but who are we kidding -- this has been coming for some time now. Maroun's negligence has allowed one of the great pieces of American train station architecture to fall to ruin. But the two sides are looking at this too "one way or the other". There seem to be only two options here -- demolish, or develop.

I for one think the building needs to go -- but not all of it. It is obvious that no developer is about to come in to fix this thing up, and Maroun certainly isn't going to -- he hardly puts a few thousand into securing the place & fixing the fence, let alone redevelop it. It would cost upwards of $200 million to redevelop the structure. Even without its 13-story office tower, the costs would stay around the same -- you would have to secure the lower levels, carefully dismantle the tower (no easy feat) and then you would have a cavernous concourse & mezzanine for--what? A shopping complex? Basketball courts? I don't think so. Not to mention its distance from the CBD is a hinderance. There are not many options here.

I adore the MCS, and will be sad to see it go -- but I propose a reasonable solution that may help the residents in Corktown, look good for the city, and allow the preservationists some degree of consolation. Preserve the front facade wall, remove the windows and doors, and expand Roosevelt Park onto the land where the concourse & mezzanine once stood. This radical solution would give Roosevelt Park a similar appearance as the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco, where towering baroque columns and a huge atrium dominate a pleasant public space with trees & gardens. Our MCS facade would not be nearly the size of San Francisco's jewel, but it would give the area a much better appearance and actually be an asset to the community. This is the key here -- would we rather have a gravel lot where an architectural gem once stood, or a sculpture, a monument of what once stood, and a beautiful public park where residents & visitors can relax and enjoy the green space and views of the city & bridge. A true asset for the Corktown neighborhood, and Detroit.

And let's be realistic -- it will cost way more than $3.5 million to demolish this hulking tank of a structure. So if we're heading into the $8-$15 million category, it is worth an extra $1-$5 million to preserve the facade & improve the park.

To get an idea of my solution, take a look at this picture of the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco:
http://www.traveltripz.com/wp-conten...-fine-arts.jpg (http://www.traveltripz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/palace-of-fine-arts.jpg)

I really like the idea of using the waiting room space as an outdoor concert venue! Dismantle the roof and keep some of the surrounding elements, like the front facade, interior columns, etc, and it would be a great outdoor venue space.

Let's be honest here. A kind of "ruins park", where you could browse the ruins of the building legally, go to the roof, etc, is pretty unrealistic. So is seeing the building redeveloped. Somewhere in between there, the concert venue idea, the park clubhouse idea, and my idea for a public plaza/gardens, I think these are more viable & realistic. But let's keep hearing them. I know there are lots of ideas out there. I am not sure if anyone who is "in charge" is reading this thread, but it's good to get the ideas out there.

[Lorax]

There are some great ideas here, I personally like the one which turns the MCD into a semi-ruin folded into a park-like setting. A large low ground-fountain in the park in front, flower beds, perhaps a large botanical garden, stands of trees, the elimination of the tower portion of the station- all could make a creative and economical re-invention of the site.

And definitely let the Metropark system handle the maintenance. In fact, turn the entire project over to them with a nationally known landscape architect in charge, and throw in Belle Isle to sweeten the deal.

[LodgeDodger]

Why don't we ask Matty what his plans are for the building?

Matty?

[DetroitDad]

I love the idea for a concert venue. What would be the solution to the noise pollution it would inflict on nearby residential areas? That could be a problem.

[Bob Green]

The 18 story tower never fully used in the depot heyday, so what is there to think you can find a use for it when it is in the shape it is in. It is finally time to take this building down and move on.

[Russix]

“Governor, regional leaders and citizens celebrate grand reopening of Michigan Central Station on 100th anniversity” – Detroit Times April 8, 2013

After surviving a close swing of the wrecking ball, MCS lives to celebrates its 100th birthday with new life. “It’s was like Penn Station all over again”, one attendee claimed.
4 years ago the only future for the station was a political demolition to grab votes during an election year. Luckily, an internet discussion group formed a viable plan to reuse the station and marketed it successfully to the public. The task wasn’t easy, but the potential rewards were limitless. The main feature of the newly reopened station is its placement as the city’s stop on the Chicago-Toronto high-speed rail network. Formally the Detroit-Chicago line use to move an average of 450,000 riders per year. With investments resulting in increased speed, greater city interconnectivity through MCS and expanding destination options, MCS alone is predicted to handle 3 million riders this year. MCS is not just train station anymore, Greyhound and Indian Trails are scheduled to move their passenger terminal to operate in MCS also. “We use to have a lot more trains back in the day”, a local Professor explains, “but there’s nothing in the rule book that say you can’t convert an empty rail platform to a bus terminal”. Along with the international rail link, intercity bus services, local transit agencies are ramping up as well. DDOT/SMART will slightly alter routing to restart service at the old streetcar station at MCS. Engineers from M12-RAIL and the architects from the Roosevelt Park Underground Garage are working together to figure out the best possible way to provide M12-RAIL with a station close to MCS using part of the garage like a subway station. The Ann-Arbor-Detroit commuter line also stops here before heading up to New Center. In the works too, an historic trolley line running right out of MCS along the riverfront, making a complete circle around Belle Isle before returning to MCS. “I can’t believe we almost knocked it down”, says a local resident, “my property values are skyrocketing, everyone wants to be close to MCS because it connects to everything!” Remarkably, some the biggest increases in property values are located in the station itself. The station’s office tower is a great fit for out-of-town firms to set up satellite offices and the residential spaces were quickly rented to frequent travelers. MCS has some floors setup as a hotel for short-term visitors who wish to stay in the station. Local businesses are seeing positive results too, unlike a special event which would provide only a short influx of visitors; MCS provides a steady stream of visitors. “We’re Rich!”, says the mayor, “There is no other single improvement to this city that could have reaped such a huge return while vastly improving the quality of life for its residents.”

[Rocko]

Well, since this thread is here, it's another opportunity for me to post my grand plan for MCS and rail into downtown Detroit. It's long, sorry. I've bolded the parts that directly deal with how to best use MC, but it does tie in with the larger plan.

[quote]The Michigan Central Station could once again be a hub for Detroit Transit, with some vision, some $$$, and a plan in place. It won’t be the only transportation option, but an important cog in the revitalization of transit in and out and through the Motor City.

We’ve all seen the destruction of the inside of the building, thanks to the neglect of owner Matty Moroun and the constant bombardments by vagrants and film crews and everything else. Here is my plan for the building’s revitalization:

We need to realize that the building can once again be successful as a train station, even though not in the CBD, as long as we also provide a direct and convenient link to the CBD for such passengers. MC is just over 1 mile outside of the city center. When constructed in 1913, the station sat on the right of way with Chicago to the west and the Detroit River Tunnel to the east. Also to the east, was the direct connection to the old Michigan Central Third Street Depot and freight yards. Much of this alignment remains today, covered only with vegetation. The rail alignment to Third Street continued at ground level where the Tunnel entrance descends down, then continues through a trough grade separation under Bagley, Rosa Parks, Lafayette, and Fort Street, where it begins to curve to parallel the river and more of less was built over by the enlargement of W. Jefferson in the 80s, after the remnants of FSUD and the approach viaduct were removed. By this time, the freight houses along the river were a thing of the past, too, and the tracks were trimmed back to roughly 15th Street, where the present CSX alignment and NS Boat Yard line end. The tracks between MCS and the Third St. depot were removed, though the trough remained. This still-remaining old freight alignment is very important.

As I see it, Detroit needs a commuter rail station downtown, but that does not mean MC cannot be significant, too. We all know that the time is running out for both Joe Louis and Cobo in their current forms. Joe Louis might be replaced by a new arena near the Fox, while numerous plans are afloat to rebuild and enlarge Cobo. What if the Joe Louis parking garage was demolished, and the Northern face of Cobo demolished, and a trainshed was constructed parallel to Congress, with all stub tracks terminating near the corner of Washington Blvd and Congress St? This would be more downtown than Fort St. station by 3-4 blocks, and more central than a station near Brush Street (old GTW Station, where the Ren Cen is today). What’s to say the new commuter station cannot be tied in to a redeveloped Cobo Hall? It could not be any more convenient in regard to downtown location, and would have a direct tie to the DPM/Cobo Station. Put the trainshed on the lower level and build Cobo above, or scale the north wall of Cobo away from Congress a few hundred feet and put a glass ceiling over part of the trainshed, to give it plenty of ambient lighting (we don’t want to copy oldie Detroit Metro Airport terminals... do we?)

Most of this alignment is in place and with nothing built over it. Commuter trains can stop at MCS on their way into the city. The trains can then skirt the river tunnel, follow the old alignment under Fort Street, then follow the old FSUD viaduct alignment behind the post office. The Joe Louis garage could be demoed when the Joe is no longer used. Cobo will be essentially rebuilt, anyhow. A bridge can carry the tracks over W. Jefferson behind Riverfront Apartments, and the Lodge Freeway.

As for MC, it can again become the Detroit terminal for Amtrak trains into an out of the city. You say, “how will Amtrak service to Pontiac, etc. be maintained with a loop out of the way to MCS?” In California, the successful Pacific Surfliner trains operate between San Diego and LA, with some continuing north to Santa Barbara. Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal is a stub ended terminal, but it is still used for these through trains. The trains operate push-pull, stay at Los Angeles for 20 minutes, the engineer hops on the cab at the other end, and the train takes off. The process is reversed for trains coming south. Michigan Amtrak trains already operate in push-pull mode. Why can’t the train follow it’s current route from Chicago and go straight in to MCS? It could then reverse direction, get on the Conrail alignment at Bay City Jct, access the CN at CP-Vinewood, and take the same route it already does to get there. MC gets used, and service north is retained. It would also be able to be used effectively in a start up service south to Toledo, and for any future trains which would utilize the Detroit River Tunnel to Canada. MCS would then be Detroit’s hub for Amtrak service, and a stop for every commuter train operating on the AA-Detroit line, or any other future line. Shorter “Shuttle” commuter trains could be timed to carry passengers between MCS and the downtown terminal to get people to and from the Amtrak trains, while the commuter trains on the AA line could just continue after stopping at MC toward downtown.

As for the revitalization of the MCS office tower, it can occur in incremental stages, as opportunities come forward to fill the tower with offices, etc. While the incompleteness of the upper floors of the office tower was once seen as a negative, it can now be a substantial positive. No need to tear out walls, wiring, old systems, old supplies. It’s already been done, because it was never done in the first place. It’s like a new building within the frame of an old building. Everything can be customized, because they’re starting from a nearly clean slate. Extra unoccupied room in the tower? In LA, the Metropolitan Transit Authority built a new headquarters building beside LAUPT. Headquarter operations for DDOT and SMART, dispatching for the new commuter and light rail could all be held within the tower. In Detroit, we already have our office building atop our train station. Since no building downtown currently has a public observation deck, one of the top floors of the east side of the building could be turned into such a place for viewing the powerful skyline of the city and Detroit River. Charge a reasonable fee, something like $5. This can be tied in with a portion of the station which will be stabilized but remain essentially as it is today – to remind us of where we’ve been these past 20 years, and to fulfill the niche of having our urban ruin, and urban exploration, in a safer and more controlled setting. There are plenty of places in the building that would qualify, even if the Concourse, Arcade, and main waiting room are restored. And on that note, the restoration do not necessarily need to be 100% back to 1913. Many of the columns, etc, have been weathered by the constant bombardment of the elements these past two decades, and this can remain, again, another reminder of where we’ve been.

Continue to next post below!!:)

[Rocko]

MC can be a stop on the commuter line, and THE Detroit station for Amtrak trains. Thus, it would serve Mexicantown and Corktown neighborhood commuters, and area wide Amtrak passengers. Amtrak passengers could take the commuter shuttle downtown or to another commuter stop, but most Amtrak passengers would drive their car to MC or be dropped off. I mean, that’s pretty much how it is at other Michigan Amtrak stations. Know about the old Roosevelt Warehouse building a block to MC’s east on 15th Street at Marantette St.? It’s been abandoned for years, with as many windows broken as MC has. I see parking garage written all over it. Knock out the windows. Insert parking garage decks, as in the Michigan Theatre. Suddenly you have the prettiest garage in Detroit, serving commuters and passengers every day. Put a pedestrian tunnel under 15th Street into MC’s east side. It can have moving walkways if you like, and escalators up onto the main floor of MC at the east entrance.



Restore the station’s public areas. Chicago’s Union Station has a busy food court... MC can have one too. Gift Shops, news stands. Open the ticket windows for Amtrak and commuter passengers. Restore seating in the concourse. Restore the great hall (waiting room), but rent it out for weddings, company meetings, events, etc. Other big city train stations do this. We have precedents many in other places.

Although the trainsheds were demolished in 2000, the platforms remain, and the track areas were simply paved with asphalt. Relaying new track would not be a problem, nor would erecting modern style platform canopies....unless...

Anyone familiar with the Grand Rapids area might know that there used to be a Union Terminal near downtown to serve the Pere Marquette, Pennsylvania, and New York Central. Today, it sits under the US-131 freeway, and the station was demoed in the late 50's in preparation for the freeway build. The large glass and steel frame trainshed was taken apart piece by piece and moved to 28th Street for use as a lumber warehouse. Although it’s been taken apart again, it is now safely in storage in the Grand Rapids area. Wouldn’t it be cool to re-erect the Grand Rapids trainshed behind MC as a way to utilize pieces of two of the state’s grandest train stations? We’d need a trainshed anyway, and a large one with lots of light and protection from the elements would be the best.

In its active days, MCS passengers accessed the train platforms from the concourse via the underground tunnel, which took them to stairs and ramps up to their appropriate track. What kind of visual appeal would that have to fix up the tunnel, so as people walk up to their train, they come up to see a huge glass and steel frame trainshed above and brand new platforms, etc.?

In one stroke, we’ve reopened MC and found important realistic, valuable uses for it. We’ve got a grand train station for intercity passengers. We’ve got a facility that can handle an expansion and the current and future capacity. We’ve got a new downtown commuter terminal. No more #53 DDOT Woodward bus transfer from New Center to a bus to get downtown. No major demolition of buildings that wasn’t already going to be done. The alignment is already there.

I realize this will take what seems like and endless supply of $$$ and a lot of planning. I realize it won’t have support from everyone. This is just my idea, one person’s, to try to stem the flow of demolition and negativity in our great city.


>>>Rocko, once upon a time BusterWMU, really enjoying all these new posting options on DetroitYES! Thanks Lowell!!

[gnome]

At 1PM today, as in about 10 minutes,Ken Cockrel, current mayor, will be appearing on WDET's (101.9 fm) DetroitToday discussing his plan for the Depot.

They have a blog at www.wdetfm.org where you can post your ideas for the building, don't know if Cockrel will take questions from the listening audience, but for what it's worth ...

[tkelly1986]

What would be great is if Wayne County consolidated its offices there. They could create a government center and even refurbish the train station part to act as the Amtrak/commuter hub. Wayne County could share this building with the Detroit Police Department and use the Roosevelt Warehouse as the parking garage.

In the future, when light rail is returned to Michigan Ave, it can have a Government Center stop.

[gnome]

Great idea tkelly, however, Wayne County consolidated their offices last year when they bought the Guardian building.

... oh, for those that didn't hear cockrel on wdet, you didn't miss anything, he just restated his previous position by saying that the best situation would be to have the building rehabbed, but that hasn't happened, and doesn't look like it will happen in the current economic climate.

[oneway]

New regional FBI headquarters

The FBI had already planned for 11.6 acres to construct its regional headquarters on the west edge of downtown/Corktown, but had postponed the project in August 2008. Roosevelt Park could also serve as part of the needed buffer zone, and I'm fairly confidant that the buildings colossal steel structure eases any counter-terrorism concerns. It would certainly stimulate the economy and preserve a treasured landmark. Viable?

[cman710]

An FBI headquarters would be great if it preserved the structure, but it would also mean that the public would really never see it again, which would not be good. Of course, it would beat demolition.

[DetroitPlanner]

Leave it the way it is, install lighted monkey bars to link it to Michigan Ave, have a couple of water features that sometimes work, sometimes don't. Rip Down all the trees in the park and put in parking lots. After all some of the streets in corktown are kind of tight, and there is not enough parking there for both residents, and the folks who want to go to slows and the coffee bar. :D
Its my masterpiece! :rolleyes:

[Rocko]

Check out this link... the photos might blow your mind:

http://onlyndetroit.com/html/decay/ond-0016-all_abord.htm

[Russix]

MCS Station Layout (http://dev.extenia.com/MCS.jpg)

Included in station Layout:
Taxi Stand
Curbside Passenger Driveway
Parking Garage
M12RAIL Lightrail station using the old Interurban platform in front of the station.
DDOT/SMART Bus Stop- 37 Michigan, 18 Fenkell, 47 Vernor, 200 Michigan, 125 Fort would detour slightly to service MCS transit triangle.
Riverfront Heritage Trolley - a route following Rocko's plan up to the riverfront then running down Atwater to RenCen and Belle Isle using the heritage trolleys.

Toronto-Chicago High-Speed Platform
Amtrak Platform
VIARAIL Platform
Greyhound Bus Terminal

Ideally the office tower would house the administrative offices for all of the transit agencies mentioned. Private office space for businesses. A hotel for travelers and then topped with condos.

[christos]

its pretty extensive, but pretty logical, for all of the details, check out http://sewersteam.blogspot.com

The basic gist of it is this:

1) Begin high-speed rail service to Chicago out of MCS (it is designated as such, we just need to coordinate scheduling with freight lines and clear the bottleneck after Gary). Current cars can already hit 110 mph.

2) Make MCS the stop for the coming Detroit-Ann Arbor line (which will eventually spread to Lansing)

3) Offer regular train service to Windsor's VIA station (making MCS an "international train station" that would serve as an attraction for those wishing to visit places like Toronto or Montreal by rail)

4) Create a high-speed rail corridor with Toledo and Cleveland (congress is already researching this)

5) Offer commuter service to Toledo (with stops in Monroe and Downriver- no new rail infrastructure needed)

6) Offer commuter service to Flint (with stops in Royal Oak and Pontiacno new rail infrastructure needed)

7)Route key SMART and D-DOT bus lines through MCS, including a shuttle to the Rosa Parks Transit Center at Times Square

8) Make the terminus of the Woodward line at MCS (you could use the infrastructure in place behind JLA and cut across Jefferson)

The result would generate a fair amount of traffic through MCS, and with so many commuter lines, and Amtrak trains running in and out of there, the office tower portion would make an interesting office complex, with the ability to recruit workers at every single commuter stop.

[detmich]

I would open a Mercury Coffee Bar Annex in the station.

[GOAT]

I thought it would have made a nice casino with a water park. That being said. how about a hotel/waterpark?

[Retroit]

Great thread topic, E hemingway! I love all the ideas, no matter how unreasonable. Anything is better than what we have now. Here is one of my unrealistic redevelopment plans:

A gated, resort-type, retirement community complete with a golf course. This would appeal to older folks who may be more interested in the classic architecture than the younger folks. The gated security would provide a safe environment for golfing, walking, bike riding, etc. The tower would be turned into apartments/condos. The main lobby would be turned into a large banquet hall that could be rented out. It would still be open to the public, but on a restricted basis.

And if the need ever arose for a train station, this could be accommodated. The retirement themed facility could be converted into a visitor themed facility. Apartment/condos could be converted into extended stay suites. The golf course and other recreation facilities in a secure environment would provide an attractive place to stay for out of towners.

[Gistok]

Short of any restoration or renovation plans, I like Detourdetroit's plan on just leaving it as a large ruin within a park setting.

My question for those on this forum who wish to tear it down is this... what constitutes a ruin that should be leveled, versus one that should be preserved?

The Alamo in the middle of San Antonio is a ruin. And yet it still stands. The Roman Colosseum (Flavian Amphitheatre) has had all of the architectural brickwork taken off of the back of the building (we always only see it in pictures from the side that has NOT been partially dismantled), so it is really in much worse shape than the MCS.

All but one of the over 40 castles on the scenic part of the Rhine River in Germany are partially or totally ruined...

What constitutes the criteria for saving a ruin versus bulldozing it? Is it historical value?

The MCS was Detroit's own version of Ellis Island for the hundreds of thousand of people who migrated here from all parts of the country and world, for jobs and a new way of life.

The MCS was where loved ones were sent off to war (WWI, WWII, Korea)... and the lucky ones were greeted upon their return here. Granted most folks who post here have NEVER had this type of experience, unless you include Metro Airport, which is hardly the same thing.

The MCS has been around when train travel was the only way to get around... long before the advent of Airlines and the Interstates.

Why does no one complain that San Antonio continues to have that ruinous Alamo, yet we should raze the MCS? Is it because no major battles happened there? If so, then we might as well raze historic Fort Wayne, since no battle was ever fought there.

Or is it because there are already so many ruins of Detroit, and getting rid of the biggest ruin somehow makes some folks who post here happy, thinking that maybe one less ruin will make Detroit a better place, even though it will just likely end up a weed strewn meadow for many decades...

Can't we have one major ruin? Granted it would be America's largest and most impressive ruin.... so what's wrong with that? It has classic Greco-Roman architecture, a perfect fit for a ruin!

Or does that go against the American grain of bulldozing everything that can't be used. After all, no one will argue that we are a throwaway society.

Frank Lloyd Wright once said that Architecture is what future civilizations will judge our civilization by...

Well I certainly wouldn't want to be judged by strip malls and drive-thru fast food places...

Gistok

[vintagesoul]

Definitely does not have to be razed. I am with you on that Gistok. However, I think there are a lot of variables when dealing with inner-city "ruins". Where safety is a concern, I lean more towards demolition. If the structure can be secured and made to be safe and have some sort of usefulness via historical-educational value then that's great. Of course this is all assuming that it's impossible for the forseeable future to rehab it into something more useful than just sitting there looking like it does.

Basically what I am saying is, with respect specifically to the MCS, something needs to happen. I do not feel that generally speaking you can make sweeping statements about whether all abandoned/condemned structures should be torn down. Each situation needs to be reviewed individually.

I think there is a lot of value in the MCS and it should not be torn down, but the situation being what it is, if that is the only option besides leaving it like it is, then I think that is what will need to happen. It's all about what options we are presented with at the time.

But in agreeance with you, most people who want to demo buildings no questions asked want to for the wrong reasons...mainly they just don't know better.

[Gistok]

I agree vintagesould. Unlike other ruins, the MCS as a ruin should have people kept at bay (for safety's sake), rather than allowing unrestricted access.

[oneway]

Despite all of the City's issues, I didn't realize that MCS was such a pressing matter. I've worked at several schools engulfed by abandoned, dilapidated housing. It's convienent to focus attention on hulks like MCS and Lafayette rather than have a substantive conversation about our neighborhoods.

Does Corktown have a proposal for this site?

[vintagesoul]

Despite all of the City's issues, I didn't realize that MCS was such a pressing matter. I've worked at several schools engulfed by abandoned, dilapidated housing. It's convienent to focus attention on hulks like MCS and Lafayette rather than have a substantive conversation about our neighborhoods.

Does Corktown have a proposal for this site?

This is just a theoretical discussion of people's plans for this building. No doubt all the people who posted here have the same types of ideas for other parts of the city - including the blighted neighborhoods you speak of.

Why don't you start a thread for substantive discussion about the neighborhoods instead of posting that? This should always be constructive discussion. Not sarcastic-destructive.

[oneway]

I was referring to the City Council's motion for demolition, vintagesoul. This is a great thread. Quick pounce though, you almost had me.

[vintagesoul]

Ok - point taken. I misread your post due to the remark about convenience.

[McIPor]

In 2001, our firm did a number of feasibility studies that looked at uses, structural stability, and costs to renovate the MCD for Centra. The structual studies showed the building to be sound, the cost estimate at the time, was approximately $40 million. Centra pumped the water out of the basement, cleaned out a lot of debris, and secured the building. We worked with a structural engineer who did a report, and a contractor on pricing (who had done renovation work on the building in the 80’s before it was closed, including a new roof)

The financial model for saving the building was finding a tenent for the tower, either office, hotel, residential or some combination like the current Book Cadillac. The tower use would financially support keeping the grand rooms below, which at the time we looked at as contemporary art museum space (MoCAD perhaps?), Casino, event spaces, small retail, even movie theaters built behind where the train sheds were. We also located much of the salvage that was removed that could be used for reproduction of missing details.

In 2001, Centra was in discussions with the GSA and customs to move into the tower until 9/11. After that, it was looked at to be one of 3 homeland security centers in the country, but that didn’t get funded by congress. We looked at it as a casino and hotel. Then the Police were interested in moving their headquarters there. That didn’t happen because they decided to decentralize their offices for security (again post 9/11).

I do not support demolishing this great structure. If anything, have the DEGC help Centra locate a tenent and work on financing to make it happen. A renovated MCD would go very far in moving that neighborhood forward. Maroun and centra had no intention of tearing it down back then.

[Burnsie]

MclPor wrote, "Centra...secured the building."

No, it didn't.

[Bob Green]

Does anyone have any pictures of MCS in its last years of service, or the couple years after it closed before it was pillaged?

[Rocko]

This short video documentary was done in 1987, less than a year before the station closed. Check it out, it's pretty cool/heartbreaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbtyUsnrY2I

[McIPor]

It fixed the fences and secured the property. Also had an agreement with the police to arrest trespassers, but this was 5 or
6 years ago now.


MclPor wrote, "Centra...secured the building."

No, it didn't.

[DTW plug]

Been lurking a while but had to comment on this issue.

It sounds as if tenants could be found through goverment (federal vs state) saving the office tower, leaving the shed for alternative uses.

I would suggest, and I hope 'Matty' reads this, is the conversion of the main hall into an 'Exploratorium' type of childrens museum and/or transportation museum, making use of the sheds outside. The preservation of the facade a la 'Palace of Fine Arts' in SF was suggested, but the rear portion of the park houses the Exploratorium, an excellent hands on museum. This could be a boon for kids, (esp DPS), looking for inspiration. If done well, this facility would be unique in the region, if not the country, while providing a gorgeous learning environment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploratorium

An alternative use could be to showcase Detroit's role as 'Arsenal of Democracy' in WWII. A 'The Henry Ford' extension campus?

Motown Museum?

This could happen even if the tower needed to be demolished.

God knows this man needs the good PR this would generate.

[Gistok]

Cincinnati's Art Deco Train Station found a second life as a museum. But then it wasn't burdened with a 16 story office tower....

http://www.cincymuseum.org/explore_our_sites/union_terminal/

The irony here is that although Cincinnati had the foresight to preserve and save their train station, they made the BIG mistake of letting every single one of their historic downtown movie palaces get destroyed, and now that they could use a few, they're gone forever...

[KarmicCurse]

This building is such a unique treasure of architecture and heritage that future generations will never accept our current reasons for demolishing it. Long after dilemmas of cost and function will have been forgotten the loss will be the only legacy they have.

Why not meet developers halfway? Neglect by the owner and the city have pushed the building's condition beyond reasonable private redevelopment costs. So why not agree with a developer to get it up to a more reasonable "fixer upper" status? Once a developer is found the city agrees to pay for the initial clean-up, stabilization, removal of remaining tracks, a bit of landscaping, etc. Once it's up to a realistic rehab condition the private developer will take over.

Admittedly I have no idea what that alone will cost or who might be interested in finishing the job. But if the city paid for that much of the project (preferably by forcing Maroun to foot the bill) then it might be more feasible.

Again I have no idea how realistic this is, but another idea is a partially public limited corporation? Once a potential idea or developer is found the city opens funding to "investors". We buy shares in the building for maybe $500 each with the understanding that the owner/developer pays everyone back with some interest within 10 years. With enough care from individuals, preservation groups, and architectural institutions both academic and corporate world wide they might raise enough for that initial clean-up. The city would have to guarantee restitution if the developer defaults. Anyone who invests would get a brick or a plaque somewhere in the building or its grounds with their name on it, like at the Opera House. One of its many great rooms could have a redevelopment tribute theme.

And of course NO property taxes for the new owner/developer for the first 10 years or so!

I still think an institution of higher learning would be an ideal use. An entire campus in one building. Either a government college or something private.

[Gsgeorge]

This building is such a unique treasure of architecture and heritage that future generations will never accept our current reasons for demolishing it. Long after dilemmas of cost and function will have been forgotten the loss will be the only legacy they have.

Why not meet developers halfway? Neglect by the owner and the city have pushed the building's condition beyond reasonable private redevelopment costs. So why not agree with a developer to get it up to a more reasonable "fixer upper" status? Once a developer is found the city agrees to pay for the initial clean-up, stabilization, removal of remaining tracks, a bit of landscaping, etc. Once it's up to a realistic rehab condition the private developer will take over.

Admittedly I have no idea what that alone will cost or who might be interested in finishing the job. But if the city paid for that much of the project (preferably by forcing Maroun to foot the bill) then it might be more feasible.

Again I have no idea how realistic this is, but another idea is a partially public limited corporation? Once a potential idea or developer is found the city opens funding to "investors". We buy shares in the building for maybe $500 each with the understanding that the owner/developer pays everyone back with some interest within 10 years. With enough care from individuals, preservation groups, and architectural institutions both academic and corporate world wide they might raise enough for that initial clean-up. The city would have to guarantee restitution if the developer defaults. Anyone who invests would get a brick or a plaque somewhere in the building or its grounds with their name on it, like at the Opera House. One of its many great rooms could have a redevelopment tribute theme.

And of course NO property taxes for the new owner/developer for the first 10 years or so!

I still think an institution of higher learning would be an ideal use. An entire campus in one building. Either a government college or something private.

Karmic, welcome & great first post. These ideas are fantastic, exciting, and reasonable. How do we ever let the people "in charge" know?????? Does anyone know if a "partially public limited corporation" or something like this has been formed, and if so is it legal?

[GREENTROIT]

Well you said outlandish was ok, so here goes...

Let's make it a renewable energy center. Replace every window on the South side of the building with solar panels, hell put them all over the south side. We won't have to look at them, instead, Windsor gets the joy. Run power lines to and from the building, and put the energy back into the grid. Put a giant wind mill on the roof of the building, use the wind for power too.

Maybe use the generated power for Corktown only, and market the neighborhood as a place with free electricity. That might attract a few homebuyers and would certainly attract a business or two.

Please keep in mind I have no fantasies that this is feasible or possible and I'm only giving outlandish ideas as was suggested...

[Huggybear]

McIPor, your client has more than enough money to redo the building for cash and has enough of a stranglehold on the local logistics industry to find his own tenants. He doesn't need any governmental, quasi-governmental or nonprofit agency to find a tenant for the building. We know that if he thinks it will make money, Mr. Maroun will put money in it. And if he doesn't have that view of MCS, why should the rest of us struggle to help him? If Detroit has a limited office space market, why would we ever divert potential tenants out of the CBD? Who's going to occupy the Lafayette Building?

And the bigger question is why should we divert resources to someone who has developed a reputation for being venal, stingy and litigious. It is difficult to identify any charity he supports or any significant way in which he gives back to the community - particularly hard to swallow when he did not grow up poor or have any other understandable reason to hoard money. It can't be lost on him that at his age, it's time to start thinking about his legacy. If he did something great for the community in the here and now, he would also have an easier time with his various projects. Supporting the community is a personal choice that he is free not to make, but a lot of people with a lot less money do so.

So my suggestion is this:

1. That Maroun be allowed to build his second span - on the site of the first one. Call his bluff about closing down the Ambassador bridge. If he's worried about traffic, he can build a double-decker. And in the meantime, he can use the rail right of way he bought to operate the train tunnel as a truck tunnel.

2. He can take the money he would have spent on maintaining the Ambassador Bridge to renovate the MCS and then donate the whole thing to charity.

See? Problem solved.

If history is any lesson, the reality of the MCS demolition is that as soon as the City has the paperwork together, we're going to see a lawsuit. I wouldn't lose any sleep over its coming down. It will be a long while.




In 2001, our firm did a number of feasibility studies that looked at uses, structural stability, and costs to renovate the MCD for Centra. The structual studies showed the building to be sound, the cost estimate at the time, was approximately $40 million. Centra pumped the water out of the basement, cleaned out a lot of debris, and secured the building. We worked with a structural engineer who did a report, and a contractor on pricing (who had done renovation work on the building in the 80’s before it was closed, including a new roof)

The financial model for saving the building was finding a tenent for the tower, either office, hotel, residential or some combination like the current Book Cadillac. The tower use would financially support keeping the grand rooms below, which at the time we looked at as contemporary art museum space (MoCAD perhaps?), Casino, event spaces, small retail, even movie theaters built behind where the train sheds were. We also located much of the salvage that was removed that could be used for reproduction of missing details.

In 2001, Centra was in discussions with the GSA and customs to move into the tower until 9/11. After that, it was looked at to be one of 3 homeland security centers in the country, but that didn’t get funded by congress. We looked at it as a casino and hotel. Then the Police were interested in moving their headquarters there. That didn’t happen because they decided to decentralize their offices for security (again post 9/11).

I do not support demolishing this great structure. If anything, have the DEGC help Centra locate a tenent and work on financing to make it happen. A renovated MCD would go very far in moving that neighborhood forward. Maroun and centra had no intention of tearing it down back then.

[McIPor]

Let the council keep Cobo, go ahead and create the regional authority to build a new Cobo on the old Tiger Stadium site and adjacent lots The MCD could become a great new convention hotel then. The new cobo would be just up Michigan Ave from MGM Hotel, Fort Shelby, Book Cadillac and Campus Martius with a trolley / light rail connecting all. The old Cobo could be maintained and used by the city until the new, regionally controlled one is built. Then, tear down the existing Cobo freeing up 50 acres of prime riverfront land for redevelopment as well as letting Jefferson continue through to the west riverfront.[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]

[4real]

A Prison. For crooked politicians

[Burnsie]

Huggybear wrote, "he can use the rail right of way he bought to operate the train tunnel as a truck tunnel."

Moroun doesn't own the (still active!) railroad tunnel, or the right of way leading up to it. Up to a point near the depot, the R/W is owned by Conrail Shared Assets. Past that point, it and the tunnel are owned jointly by Canadian Pacific Railway and Borealis Infrastructure Management, Inc.

Moroun *may* own the tracks over the train shed area, but not the main line.

[Rocko]

Burnsie, you're 100% correct.

And this is just another area where the potential "demo" on the MC falls short. The active mainline leading between the Tunnel mouth and W. Detroit Junction sits on top of the baggage and mail rooms, which is integrated and a part of the structure of MC. I bet not council person considered that limitation. Matty only owns the station and the land immediately behind it where the trainsheds once were.

[Blarf]

Turn it into a giant pillow factory.

[Retroit]

In keeping with the train theme, would there be enough room to top this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e98_1237657552

[ddf313]

Three thoughts:

1. Isn't the building on the Historic list, making it impossible to tear down?

2. I always pictured all of the empty streets around their with 3 story flat/apartment type buildings. Can Corktown handle the extra population?

3. I think MCS could serve as an end-of-the-line for the Woodward Light rail. The line could make its way to the river, and head west through the newly developed WEST waterfront and up to the station.

I don't think it looks that unrepairable. It reminds me of pictures I saw of the Book-Cadillac.

[Lorax]

DTW is correct, Matted Moron needs the good PR of doing something positive with MCD, but unfortunately he's got the reputation of Mussolini and Ebenezer Scrooge combined, but without the glitter and good looks.

The Matted One has enough coin to rehab, market, and support the MCD through eternity, however, being a business person first, and last, it's his job to make YOU pay for it.

Whenever a right wing fascist can drink from the public well, they are all too happy. Moron is just as guilty as the next corporate ass pirate of taking welfare when it suits him.

The difficulty here is HOW he's perceived in the public's eye is of no conern to him. Reputation good or otherwise doesn't interest him. Only money does. And the richer they are, the cheaper they are. So until the city, county, or someone else ponies up the cash, he's not interested. The only other answer is to simply seize the station.

The city needs to take the MCD away from him, and turn it over to someone who can make a go of it. They have Moron dead to rights on endangering the public, ignoring citations, and can take the property through eminent domain. What they're paying a city attorney for, I don't know, but he's not worth a crap if he hasn't tried this avenue yet.

Better yet, maybe PETA should do an ad featuring Matted Moron wearing the carcasses of dead buildings on his back- with their reputation for shocking ads, it might work.

[Russix]

How about some spot lights around the perimeter to light it up at night and some loud speakers playing Beethoviana in the park.

[Burnsie]

ddf313-- Being on any register of historic places will not prevent a building from getting torn down. Just look at Hudson's.

[Detroitman32]

How about they do something with the station, mothball the tower, but seal it off? That way the building can be used, but its not burdened for finding a use for a tower.