Beserk Gunman of the Month

[Pam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090403/ap_on_re_us/hostage_shooting

Or is it gunman of the week now?

[gibran]

It seems that the target were immigrants....ok where these nit just people/victims wanting to become citizens and it pissed off "who" ?

[Locke09]

They're saying the shooter was an immigrant too and that he was just laid off from IBM (they're trying to verify that). Desperate times bring out the worst in people.

[lilpup]

check out this story from NPR today:


On Feb. 24, when armed immigration agents raided Yamato Engine Specialists, a small company that rebuilds car engines in Bellingham, Wash., 28 workers were led away in handcuffs. They were illegal immigrants, most of them from Mexico, and they faced quick deportation. It was the first big immigration raid under President Obama, and it came as a shock to many in the Hispanic community.
<snip>
Now, one month later, 27 of the 28 workers have been released. One of them — Luis Ramos — says he can't get over how nice the immigration agents have become.

"They treat us wonderfully," Ramos says. "They even say, 'do you want a soda from the machine?'"

The government is offering them temporary work permits, and immigration agents are even giving the Mexicans free rides to Seattle to file the paperwork. Now the anger at Obama is coming from the other side of the immigration debate.
<snip>
On Thursday, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials came back, but this time, it wasn't after workers — the blue-jacketed immigration officials had a warrant to search the company's files. They set up special gear to copy the contents of Yamato's computers, and company manager Shirin Makalai watched the process with an air of strained cordiality.
<snip>
Rebollar [one of the released Mexicans] says he thinks Yamato treated him well, but he and his colleagues say they'll provide the government with evidence, if necessary. They have good reason to cooperate. Their work permits are valid only as long as there's a case against Yamato. Once they're no longer useful to investigators, they again face deportation.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102723012

[Bigb23]

I have no problems with skilled foriegn workers, as long as they abide by our National laws already in place. But this opens a can of worms, just like the last forum thread. Proper visa's and documentation would be an integeral part of the plan. Don't we have skilled engine builders out of work here in the Detroit area ? So some of us can't live on $7.50 an hour? I can't. Float the Nation, for better trade and buying power.

[ccbatson]

Never blame the predator/lunatic's circumstances for the evil that they do.

[lilpup]

Isn't it a little surprising, in a way, that there hasn't been anything major like this here? Here it's maybe a disgruntled worker or ex-spouse taking out one or two people, or it's a bar fight or a neighborhood argument that escalates, but no major high number takedowns. You'd think with our situation this would be ground zero.

[firstandten]

I'll say it again, we do not have a illegal worker problem, we have an illegal employer problem and the sooner we deal with it the better off we'll be.

[lilpup]

On the surface, no, but it likely did. Or are you assuming the gunman picked a bunch of immigrants to spare them the hell that is the truth behind the golden American dream they came here for?

According to news accounts the gunman, too, was an immigrant, here for many years, and recently let go from IBM.

[lilpup]

Immigrant ≠ illegal worker
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but when jobs are few the latter tends to become the focus .

[lilpup]

No. People equate all immigrants with illegal workers and this must stop.
No, really? Let's start with those who intermix all immigrant statuses in with their arguments for protecting illegal immigrants.


There is no evidence that "illegal workers" motivated the shooting and why should it? The shooter himself was an immigrant (NOT illegal), so why would he resent other immigrants? That makes zero sense.Until his recent job loss is considered in today's atmosphere.



Since he took classes there, the likelihood that this was personal - my bet is that his ex-girlfriend will turn out to be one of the victims - and to turn this into some discussion of the immigration debate is silly.How recently was he taking classes there? He'd reportedly already been in the country for 28 years!

[firstandten]

I guess the real reasons are starting to come out

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/04/national/main4918950.shtml


The discussion we need to be having is how to increase the social safety net in a society where without a job you can go from a house to a virtual tent city in a matter of months. Without the health care you get from your employer you have borderline cases of people with mental illness walking around on the edge.

[Ray1936]

There's no question in my mind that illegal immigrants are a major problem. I think we should deploy troops all along the Canadian border immediately. Indeed, we may have to invade Manitoba and Alberta, obviously the weak points.

[lilpup]

Originally Posted by Ray1936
There's no question in my mind that illegal immigrants are a major problem. I think we should deploy troops all along the Canadian border immediately. Indeed, we may have to invade Manitoba and Alberta, obviously the weak points.

Then we must immediately deport all immigrants. Let's us start with that canuck Jeffery Skoll and that Ayrab Pierre Omidiyar and make them take their foreign company with them. Then we will deport that Ruskie Sergey Brin.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2009/mar/19us-to-lose-high-skilled-entrepreneurs-study.htm
Typical bullshit argument, mixing statuses. This is the type of comment that has people equating all immigrants with illegal immigrants. Or are you really saying Jeffrey Skoll, Pierre Omidyar, and Sergey Brin were/are illegal immigrants?

[alsodave]

I guess the real reasons are starting to come out

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/04/national/main4918950.shtml


The discussion we need to be having is how to increase the social safety net in a society where without a job you can go from a house to a virtual tent city in a matter of months. Without the health care you get from your employer you have borderline cases of people with mental illness walking around on the edge.

From the article: "He had lost face with other immigrants." We also need to talk about cultural norms, and tread the fine line between behaviors practiced back in the "old country" and how "we do things here".

[Pam]

I guess we still can't edit a thread title? I spelled "berserk" wrong.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_us/binghamton_shootings_7


It was at least the fifth fatal mass shooting in the U.S. in the past month,

I guess we all need to wear bullet proof vests wherever we go now.

[Islandman]

Nah, carrying a gun is way more convenient, plus you get to shoot people when they piss you off.

[Pam]

Jeez, another one:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_us/pittsburgh_shooting

[oldredfordette]

Oh great. Another wacko who was whipped up into a frenzy at the thought of what Obama would do with his guns.

Of course the right wing media machine won't take ownership of this. Thanks to Michael Savage and Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity!

[ejames01]

This is going to get a lot worse. There are a lot of really angry people out there and most of them can't deal with losing their jobs, home and families.

:(

[ccbatson]

Guns don't help one bit...and this is coming from one of those "right wing wackos" you libs are so afraid of.

[Jimaz]

... friends said the gunman recently had been upset about losing his job and feared the Obama administration was poised to ban guns.Destructive behavior is the exact opposite of what's necessary to regain a lost job. Destructive behavior is the cul-de-sac that these people are being driven into by hate mongers. They're taught that destructive behavior is their only escape but in reality it's only a deathtrap.

The Rush Limbaughs of this world are unwittingly (or wittingly?) culling their own herd at the expense of innocent bystanders.

[ccbatson]

Rush Limbaugh? he shot people?

I don't believe these lunatics are fixing to regain their jobs...do you?

[oladub]

Detroit has a lot of gun crime but I doubt that Rush's influence has much to do with it. On the other hand, despondent Vietnamese immigrants who can't speak English are usually dittoheads.

[firstandten]

As we see this economy gets worst, many progressive and liberal thinkers and economist think a depression is going to happen. We are going to see more and more of this kind of killing. Instead of people jumping off buildings during the great depression we are seeing men that can't provide for themselves and there families just go off in a blind rage against their families and authorities.

Very few are like Wagoner who can be unemployed with a 20M golden parachute. Most of us just get pushed off the plane and hope we can land somewhere soft. I don't care what you want to call it but we need social safety nets like they have in Europe. Its either that or expect more of the killings we have been seeing lately.


Secondly, I am so disappointed in our cultures critical thinking skills. We get our information from sound bites and right wing talk radio. This had to be only way the young man could come up with "Obama is going to take his gun away".
If people would take the time to read about him or listen to his speeches or press conferences from beginning to end he will tell you exactly what he intends to do. Now you may not like it but at least you know and he has never said anything about taking anybodies gun away. What a shame!

[Pam]

Now a third one in Washington state


I guess we need to change the thread title to "Berserk Gunman of the Day".
I don't understand why they kill everybody and then kill themselves. Do that first jackass.

[Bobl]

I don't blame immigration policy for this cowardly murder. I blame the coward, a self absorbed spoiled brat with an illogical beef against who knows what. A selfish individual who chose to bring misery to the families of his victims. Another beserk gunman who just didn't care about anyone else. The real tragedy is that he didn't simply kill himself.

[oladub]

PITTSBURGH (AP) — An ambush that resulted in the shooting deaths of three Pittsburgh policemen was precipitated by a 911 call from the gunman's mother over a dog urinating in the house.
According to court papers, Richard Poplawski and his mother argued about his dog's accident Saturday morning, prompting her to threaten to evict him and to call police. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gxAP_ul1xtDvN-3H8XQ5EaI6_7cAD97CD3R80

The gunman who slaughtered 13 people at a US immigration centre was an angry loner who talked about assassinating the US president.
Former workmates said Jiverly Voong, 42, was obsessed with guns and grew to hate Americans who mocked his poor English as he struggled to find work. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/04/05/new-york-massace-gun-loner-wanted-to-kill-obama-115875-21254583/

Meanwhile in Washington a father killed his five kid after his wife left him. "Ryan Peden, a classmate of the eldest daughter, said she told him on Friday night that her parents had got into a fight and her mother had left.
The father followed the mother and tried to get her to return, said the 16-year-old." http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Father-Kills-Five-Of-His-Children-And-Then-Shoots-Himself-Dead-In-Car-Near-Casino-Close-To-Seattle/Article/200904115256004?lpos=World_News_Top_Stories_Header _3&lid=ARTICLE_15256004_Father_Kills_Five_Of_His_Chil dren_And_Then_Shoots_Himself_Dead_In_Car_Near_Casi no_Close_To_Seattle


No one has tied the cop killer's actions to listening to Rush yet or explained why he got into some fist fights, didn't get along with the neighbors and got kicked out of the Marines for throwing a food tray at a drill sargeant. But we have to blame his behavior on something. Maybe he also didn't get along with the neighbors and killed cops because he listened to the to and read between the lines of something Rush said assuming he even listened to Rush. I say this is proof positive that we need a Fairness doctrine to regulate free speech.

Mr. Voong, the recently divorced, recently unemployed Vietnamese legal immigrant who had a complex because of his poor English skills might have been listening to Rush too because he too wanted to kill President Obama. So maybe it's more than just reading between the lines of what Rush says, maybe it's just listening to Rush's voice if one can't speak English.

There isn't any evidence that the domestic violence situation in Washington resulting in six deathes had anything to do with Rush but Mr. Harrison was a diesel mechanic, his wife worked at Wal-Mart, and they lived in a trailer home so demographically it is possible that Mr. Harrison did listen to Rush and voted for McCain.

Setting aside the observation that none of these threen guys seemed to have a good relationship with women, White House snake and Chief of Staff Rahm Emmanuel reminds us, "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste,"

[ccbatson]

Anyone who believes that a radio commentator (who people choose to listen to, or not) has any blame in the criminal actions of a lunatic needs to have their own head examined.

[oldredfordette]

It looks like he was a white supremacist

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/emerging-portrait-richard-poplawski-

[ccbatson]

Figures...not a conservative necessarily, and not attributable to anyone else on the right (ie Rush).

[firstandten]

This is just my personal opinion and I am in no way a professional psychologist:

The important point to realize is that these people are commiting suicide. The homicides are NOT their main focus or they would try to get away with it. So why would they not just commit suicide in the privacy of their own homes? I think that they may have tried, but making the decision to commit suicide is actually very hard, so they decide to do something (anything) so horrific that they will then have to commit suicide - they will have no other choice. I think it is simply a variation of "Suicide by Cop". They are simply too cowardly to commit suicide under normal circumstances and have to create a sitution where it is then possible for them to do so. This of course does not excuse the behaviour at all. I realize that many people would disagree with this theory, but looking around I haven't seen the "experts" explain it any better. It would also explain the seeming randomness of the choice of victims.

I definitely agree with that theory.

[oladub]

Like with the nut-job who shot up a church in Tennessee because he hated liberals and couldn't get to Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid. His house was filled with Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly and Coulter books.


Or the Unibomber, ex U of M instructor Ted Kaczynski, whose cabin contained a well thumbed, with notes in the margin, copy of Earth in the Balance by Al Gore.

[Jimaz]

You can't listen to hate speech like that every day without it effecting your psyche.Or it could be that those whose psyche is already distorted gravitate toward hate speech. I don't know. Chicken or egg, I suppose.

I heard one psych analysis today that there may be a copycat factor contributing to this current abnormal increase in the rate of such incidents. They also mentioned a sense of a loss of power when losing a job and how going berserk is a compensating assertion of power.

(Hats off to Lilpup for anticipating this trend about a year ago.)

I guess the big question should be what should be done to arrest the trend but I haven't heard of anyone who has a handle on a solution. That seems odd but it's been a long time since we've suffered this kind of economic strife. Maybe it just hasn't been on the radar of social scientists.

I'd like to hear more suggestions about what should be done to curtail future incidents.

[oladub]

detroitsuperfly, Yes I understand. When the Unibomber killed three people it wasn't as bad as when Poplawski killed three people because maybe Poplawski had been influenced by talk radio while Kaczynski was influenced by some other source. I watched some of the video in which a reporter keeps trying to get McCain supporters to say that Obama is a terrorist. Some did. Which reminded me of an article I read today about thousands of Pakistanis who are now in refugee centers because US drones keep bombing their villages killing more people than Poplawski and Kaczynski put together. I think if you asked them if they had been terrorized since Obama became President, they might say that Obama had brought change that even Cheney could believe in.

[ccbatson]

Influenced by?? Who cares? Criminal activity from horrible judgement is the fault of the individual perpetrating the crimes, and ONLY those individuals.

[Pam]

However, I do see MANY people whipped up into a frenzied rage by talk radio


Or by elected officials:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/03/23/bachmann-armed-and-dangerous/

Can you explain how Minnesota elected this nut?

[oladub]

The witch hunt premise is being made that last week's shootings had to do with listening to Rush or other right wingers but where is the statistical proof ? Mr. Poplawski most closely fits the mold being associated with right wing radio types. He killed three while Harrison and Voong killed 18. Assertions aside, there is simply no proof that Rush's program influenced him at all. On top of that, there is no evidence that either Harrison or Voong ever listened to Rush or similar radio programs. Yet, the hysteria persists.

Perhaps the other side is whipping up a frenzy as evidenced by Pam's article. The article stated that Bachman's call for "armed revolution begins at 9:40". I listened, but she never called for "armed revolution". She said she felt like a foreign corrrespondent behind enemy lines in D.C., quoted Jefferson saying something about having a revolution once in a while, that Americans should fight back hard, and be "armed and dangerous on this issue". She didn't specify what she meant by armed and dangerous. Since she was speaking of the cap and trade tax issue, I assume that she was more likely speaking about being armed with knowledge than AK-47's. I didn't hear her mentioning arms or armed revolution at all. Did I miss the quote? Reading the responses to the author's mischaracterization, I had to wonder if the author wasn't stirring up some hatred himself with his lie. The readers of this blog go on to call her flipping idiot, crazy, greedy pigf*****, stupid c$nt!!!, among other things. I was surprised that a progressive referred to a woman as a stupid c$nt!!!.

Disclaimer: I am not defending Rep. Bachman. I know her to have a history of supporting neocon positions and voting for bailouts so I wouldn't consider voting for her. She often exagerated in her recorded radio talk. For instance, the Obama middle class cap and trade tax would not result in a 50% increase in the cost of energy as she claimed. At most, it will only increase the cost of electrical energy derived from coal by 40% and probably just 20% for natural gas. So, for instance, if DTE gets 79% of its electricity from coal, the cap and trade tax probably won't raise DTE customers' utility costs more than maybe 35% - not 50% as bachman claimed.

[Pam]

Disclaimer: I am not defending Rep. Bachman


Really? Sure sounded like it.



She didn't specify what she meant by armed and dangerous. Since she was speaking of the cap and trade tax issue, I assume that she was more likely speaking about being armed with knowledge than AK-47's.

[jiminnm]

Berserk pilot of the month:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090407/ap_on_re_us/stolen_plane

[firstandten]

Oladub- I think people like the Unabomber and Poplawski likely had some other major mental malfunction. Something organic. I think there is a lot of that going on these days. I think there is more mental illness now then there ever has been.
From simple treatable depresion, up to major psychosis. I really think that is the major cause of the random violence. Its not only an American thing. Remember the bus decapitation in Canada last year? But it sure happens here more than other places.

However, I do see MANY people whipped up into a frenzied rage by talk radio
Many people truly hate liberals. It completely irrrational, unjustified and learned.
They've been taught by punditry that liberals are the enemy, they will destroy America, are inferior, total failures, evil and stupid. Whlie on the other hand, they are taught that conservatives are always sucessful, responsible for all good in the world, superior, wealthy, logical and have common sense. Its escalating since the election. It truly reminds me of propaganda of the 30s, that blamed all evils of the world on the jews and Germans were the master race.

You can't keep up that daily pace of 24/7 rage and have it not escalate to something horrible. While much mental illness is organic and chemical, others are environmental. The daily pounding of negativity falls into the later catagory.


The Unabomber had a anti-technology rant and wasn't your garden variety right wing nut. He is probably more of a left wing nut. Both people of course are severely mentally ill, and I'm sure the unabombers home at the supermax prision will eventually cause him to lose any sense of reality he might have had left.

The irony of this thing is that the people that are bitter because they are homeless and jobless but they supported the dismantaling of our economy over the past two decades thru globalization, supply side economics, watching our manufacturing base go bye-bye ,de-regulation and thinking all this its a good thing because right-wing radio said it was less government and the big corporations will provide the jobs that we need.

Now during a shrinking economy you have a changing demographic. More people of color competiting for jobs. I'm afraid you are going to hear more revolution talk from the Chuck Norris's and Barbara Backmans of the world. The right wing nuts can sit and listen to the many right wing talk show hosts and conclude... Yea, its that damn socialist Obama fault we're in this mess with all that big government where is all the change he promised.

The change in my estimation is much more subtle I believe he wants us to look at a paradigm shift from big government=bad ,small government=good to government= make it work regardless of size.

[ccbatson]

Minneapolis...home of GOVERNOR Ventura, and CONGRESSMAN Franken...nuff said.

[ccbatson]

Schwarzenegger....Agreed.

California falls in line behind Minneapolis.

[firstandten]

Nope, he lives in the state of Denial, country of Batsonia. :)


Maybe the Detroit Yes folks can petition Southwest Airlines to have some one way specials going there I'm sure they could fill up the plane a couple times over :p

[Pam]

Another day, another shooting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090408/ap_on_re_us/retreat_shooting

[oladub]

Where's Detroitsuperfly? You now have more non-proof that that another immigrant with a language barrier has been listening to Rush or some other right wing talk radio guy.

[ccbatson]

Yes, I know, Minnesota, but the context was referring to the city therein contained so...

Beck is pretty spastic and inconsistent, sometimes out in left field, but sometimes he hits home runs.

[Pam]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31208188/

[Detroitej72]

Surprise, another racist nut who the right(Beck) defends so dearly...

[Jimaz]

He reportedly "acted alone" yet "he was an active member of groups that deny the holocaust." This raises the question of where the precipitating act occurred.

[Lorax]

Guns don't help one bit...and this is coming from one of those "right wing wackos" you libs are so afraid of.


Finally, some truth in advertising!

[Lorax]

Influenced by?? Who cares? Criminal activity from horrible judgement is the fault of the individual perpetrating the crimes, and ONLY those individuals.

You just love being Rush's stool softener, don't you?

I'll tell you who cares, the family of the guard who was murdered in the lobby of the Holocaust Memorial in Washington DC today, by an 88 year old white supremacist republican thug who regularly listened to right wing talk radio and took his racist, hateful cues from those on the right fomenting anarchy against our president and his administration.

The old fascist thug is in critical condition with a near fatal head wound, but I hope he lives long enough to face the electric chair. This should send a message to the right wing to shut their racist pie holes.

Words have consequences, you fool.

[Jimaz]

I repeat: "precipitating act."

At some point the true cause of a problem must be identified and dealt with directly. Otherwise the problem can never be solved.

[ccbatson]

Do you (Lorax) think that gun control would have prevented this lifetime nut job from carrying out his insane plan. Gun control laws are for people that obey laws.

[rb336]

Influenced by?? Who cares? Criminal activity from horrible judgement is the fault of the individual perpetrating the crimes, and ONLY those individuals.

If you knew a mentally unstable person, and knowingly stoked that persons dislike of a neighbor (as O'Reilly has done), you would be guilty of inciting to violence, just like guys who chear on a guy in the act of rape. it's the old "shouting fire in a movie house" thing. Personally, I think O'Reilly hoped someone would shoot the doctor

[barnesfoto]

As usual, our defenders of gunfreedom (TM) have made their usual comparisons to guns and airplanes.
and as usual, I would like to point out that after September 11th, 2001, Regulations and Insurance requirements on airplane operation travel were, shall we say, tightened up a bit.

Why are there no requirements that firearm owners and dealers buy insurance for their weapons or ammo?

[ejames01]

That is covered by Homeowners & Rental insurance.



Why are there no requirements that firearm owners and dealers buy insurance for their weapons or ammo?

[ejames01]

I would like Rush, Hannity, Beck and the rest of their SICK fraternity locked up in a SuperMax Prison.

[bailey]

I would like Rush, Hannity, Beck and the rest of their SICK fraternity locked up in a SuperMax Prison.


Well, sort of a point of order here... to be in a traditional "fraternity", one would need to go to college. An endeavor, I believe, none of the aforementioned three have done.

[Pam]

Interesting video of right wing talk show hosts chuckling over the recent Homeland Security report warning of right wing extremists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL7iY5uarA8

[WolverinesA2]

Guns don't kill people...crazy Right Wingers with guns kill people.

[oladub]

Guns don't kill people...crazy Right Wingers with guns kill people.

If you meant what the Bush Cheney neocon crew started in Iraq, you might have a point. If, however, gun fatality rates in red states were compared with gun fatality rates in blue states, would your comment still hold up?

From Wikipedia, "Gun violence may vary enormously within a country. Within the United States, cities tend to have higher gun crime rates but lower rates of gun ownership, compared with rural areas which tend to have lower gun crime rates but higher rates of gun ownership. Some areas have widespread gun ownership with low rates of homicide. In 2005, Wyoming had the highest number of homes with loaded and unlocked guns in the United States, at 33% of all homes in the state, and had a homicide rate of 1.7 of every 100,000. Population density can help explain these differences, and studies may restrict comparisons to similar areas to avoid misleading conclusions."

In contrast, Detroit has 47.3 murders per every 100,000 residents. Wyoming votes Republican. Detroit votes Democrat. I doubt that you meant to suggest that most of the gun deaths in Detroit are caused by 'crazy Right Wingers'.

[ccbatson]

Rb...per your own paradigm, OReilly, or whomever, would need to know the perpetrator, and that they were unstable, and that the was inciting them to act...0 out of 3.....care to try again?

[Lorax]

Do you (Lorax) think that gun control would have prevented this lifetime nut job from carrying out his insane plan. Gun control laws are for people that obey laws.

Correction: "lifetime right wing fascist nut job.."

and no, gun control wouldn't have stopped him, or anyone else who is blinded by right wing ideology from illegally obtaining a weapon and acting out their sycophantic evil.

Why do you like answering your own questions, anyway?

[rb336]

Rb...per your own paradigm, OReilly, or whomever, would need to know the perpetrator, and that they were unstable, and that the was inciting them to act...0 out of 3.....care to try again?

you don't think o'reilly knows many in his audience are mentally unhinged? he has stated as much, and he clearly frames his comments to BE inciteful. so you are, yet again, wrong

[ccbatson]

That is the most absurd thing you have ever asserted Rb (no small feat, btw).

Use a bit of logic, how could Oreilly (or anyone) be aware, or responsible for his listeners?

By extension of your argument, there is no such thing as free speech/expression...is this what you mean to suggest?

[rb336]

That is the most absurd thing you have ever asserted Rb (no small feat, btw).

Use a bit of logic, how could Oreilly (or anyone) be aware, or responsible for his listeners?


first, o'reilly has, in the past, acknowledged that some of his fans are unbalanced. to purposely provoke an audience (which he clearly does, and admits to) wherein you KNOW there are unbalanced characters is unbelievably irresponsible.

come on bats "how could Oreilly (or anyone) be aware"? he interacts with them. he talks to them. he does book signings. he reads his email (or he claims to)


By extension of your argument, there is no such thing as free speech/expression...is this what you mean to suggest?

what in what i said could you possibly torture into that statement?

you have freedom of speech, but surely YOU must realize that you have to accept the consequences of that speech. further, there is clearly speech, like inciting to violence, that is NOT covered by our constitution. do you comprehend the difference? do you think I should be able to stir up a bunch of whackos against physical rehab and then point them at you? if i did, should I not be held accountable for stirring them up and aiming them your direction?

[oladub]

rb says, "you have freedom of speech, but surely YOU must realize that you have to accept the consequences of that speech. further, there is clearly speech, like inciting to violence, that is NOT covered by our constitution. do you comprehend the difference?"

The first amendment does not make any exceptions to the freedom of speech. "Congress shall make NO law ...abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;... However, yelling 'fire' in a theater might be looked upon as something like fraud or disturbing the peace and include penalties for damages caused. Speaking of inciting violence, I doubt that Rush & Hannity ever say anything as provacative as Jefferson did in the US Declaration of Independence, " when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce (the people) under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." So far, no one has claimed that Rush has exhorted his faithful that it is their duty to violently overthrow the government.

I was wondering, on a related note, if Bibles and Korans should be made illegal by the same logic applied to right wing AM radio talk show hosts. There have been so many murders justified by words in holy books. More, I would suggest, than by messeges on AM radios. Even armies of Buddhist monks have warred on each other in Korea. And if Pakistani villages get shot up by someone Oprah promoted, is Oprah responsible for the way her audience voted? I would think that Rush may have caused more deaths by talking up the Iraq war than the number of deaths caused by whacko listeners who can be counted on one's fingers.

[ccbatson]

So? He accepts the consequences of his speech...what does that mean? Regardless, he continues to express himself as he sees fit. Circular logic which brings us back to the point, that ideas expressed that do not infringe on the rights of others are free.

[Bobl]

Carolina serial killer shot dead. Turns out to be a career criminal.


"...Burris had a long rap sheet filled with charges such as larceny, forgery and breaking and entering from states across the Southeast, including Florida, Virginia, West Virginia and Maryland. He had been paroled from a North Carolina prison in April after serving nearly eight years.
"Look at this," Lloyd said, waiving a stapled copy of Burris' criminal record. "This is like 25 pages. At some point the criminal justice system is going to need to explain why this suspect was out on the street..."
South Carolina State Law Enforcement Division Chief Reggie Lloyd.

[Meddle]

http://www.justnews.com/news/19963253/detail.html


Police Search For Gunmen

POSTED: Monday, July 6, 2009
UPDATED: 6:01 pm EDT July 6, 2009



MIAMI, Fla. -- Miami police are looking for three gunmen after a dozen people were shot early Monday morning on the streets of Miami.

Witnesses said the shooting happened during a birthday party at a home on Northwest Fifth Avenue and Seventh Street in Overtown.

Witnesses said about 300 people, mostly teenagers, were present at the time of the shooting.

Miami police said three gunmen dressed all in black walked up to the block party and started firing guns. Bullets went flying through the neighborhood just before 1 a.m., sending people ducking for cover, police said.

"It sounded like six different guns going off at one time," said witness Tia Hudson. "It's real sad. It's scary. I saw my life cross before me."

"We just heard firecrackers popping, and everybody just started shooting from every corner," a witness told Local 10.

According to police, 12 people were shot and a woman was struck by a car while trying to get away from the scene. Ten of the victims were transported by rescuers to Jackson Memorial Hospital, and friends drove two others.

[Lorax]

I live here in Miami, and this is sadly, not unusual. The number of people involved is unusual, but the circumstances aren't.

Parties, youths with guns, gang activity, all real and frightening.

I remember Batts mentioning how great emergency care is at our nation's hospitals, and it largely is, however, do any of us with emergencies not self-inflicted want to compete for the services of our hospitals when this sort of activity takes place?

Our health care system is stretched to the breaking point as it is, and such an increase in emergency room needs due to the inability of our law enforcement to contain the crime is a dangerous mix.

[ejames01]

This is terrorism. I don't see how this is any different than the Taliban or Al Queda shooting or blowing up a gathering of people.


http://www.justnews.com/news/19963253/detail.html

[ccbatson]

Wow...a good point from Lorax...rare.

Get to the root of the problem, specifically, the creation of a dependency impoverished lower class with no incentive to do honest work and every incentive to resort to crime to supplement the entitlement money received courtesy of the rest of working America. Go back even further to the entitlements that make it possible for young girls to have as many children as young as possible with no means of support whatsoever...other than the taxpayers....Destroying minority dignity and family values perpetually generation after generation.

[Lorax]

Wow...a good point from Lorax...rare.

Get to the root of the problem, specifically, the creation of a dependency impoverished lower class with no incentive to do honest work and every incentive to resort to crime to supplement the entitlement money received courtesy of the rest of working America. Go back even further to the entitlements that make it possible for young girls to have as many children as young as possible with no means of support whatsoever...other than the taxpayers....Destroying minority dignity and family values perpetually generation after generation.

Quite a stretch there, Sparky. These kids weren't destitute, they were students, some of them good ones. A few gun-toting losers in a crowd did this, gang activity at it's worst.

[Detroitej72]

Go back even further to the entitlements that make it possible for young girls to have as many children as young as possible with no means of support whatsoever...other than the taxpayers...

What do you suggest, letting the babies starve, since you want to cut out money to feed and cloth them?

You can't stop people from making stupid decisions, this is a free country and stupidity is perfectly legal.

[barnesfoto]

"This is terrorism. I don't see how this is any different than the Taliban or Al Queda shooting or blowing up a gathering of people."

<<APPLAUSE>>

[rb336]

Quite a stretch there, Sparky. These kids weren't destitute, they were students, some of them good ones. A few gun-toting losers in a crowd did this, gang activity at it's worst.

Bats always jumps at any opportunity to spew his mindless, disproven drivel

[Johnnny5]

Carolina serial killer shot dead. Turns out to be a career criminal.


"...Burris had a long rap sheet filled with charges such as larceny, forgery and breaking and entering from states across the Southeast, including Florida, Virginia, West Virginia and Maryland. He had been paroled from a North Carolina prison in April after serving nearly eight years.
"Look at this," Lloyd said, waiving a stapled copy of Burris' criminal record. "This is like 25 pages. At some point the criminal justice system is going to need to explain why this suspect was out on the street..."
South Carolina State Law Enforcement Division Chief Reggie Lloyd.



So, an ex felon was actually willing to ignore the gun control laws that ban him from possessing a firearm? I can't believe that a "career criminal" would be willing to do something like that!

[rb336]

So, an ex felon was actually willing to ignore the gun control laws that ban him from possessing a firearm? I can't believe that a "career criminal" would be willing to do something like that!

I would bet the existing laws would still allow him to get a gun, esp. in SC, at any gun show in the state

[ejames01]

You should have bet money, because you are correct. Background checks are not required on all purchases.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=sc


I would bet the existing laws would still allow him to get a gun, esp. in SC, at any gun show in the state

[ccbatson]

A moot argument...law abiding citizens lose access to guns by way of controls....law breakers do not.

[ejames01]

There is not an argument.


A moot argument...law abiding citizens lose access to guns by way of controls....law breakers do not.

[ccbatson]

THe argument that these perpetrators would have been able to legally acquire the weapons under a lax gun control system.

[rb336]

Originally Posted by ccbatson http://www.detroityes.com/mb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?p=42262#post42262)
A moot argument...law abiding citizens lose access to guns by way of controls....law breakers do not.


There is not an argument.

how, exactly, do thinngs like mandatory background checks prevent law-abiding citizens from getting guns? how, exactly, does requiring the gun manufacturers to track their inventory prevent law-abiding citizens from getting guns? those guns in all the mexican drug wars? they are guns that "went missing" do to lax enforcement and lax policies towards armament makers

[ccbatson]

As they currently exist they don't...proposed changes would have this effect. That is my point.

[Pam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090805/ap_on_re_us/us_health_club_shooting

[ejames01]

This guys sounds like some of the people that used to post here.

http://georgesodini.com/20090804.htm

[ccbatson]

The homicidal maniac at that health club would have been stymied by gun control? Dream on.

[Pam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100104/ap_on_re_us/us_federal_building_shooting

[littlebuddy]

Is there mentally unblanced people on both the left and right that listen and take to heart what is being said or read something into it. I find it hard to believe that only the right has the mentally unbalanced listeners. How many listened to those on the left who said it is ok to murder your unborn baby? How many listened to those on the left that said any kind of sex is ok. Maybe it only seems the left doesn't have its share of Rushs, Hannitys, Becks, but somehow they have gotten their message out and it is destroying this country.

[Pam]

Yet another one.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_business_shooting_st_louis

[Stosh]

Is there mentally unblanced people on both the left and right that listen and take to heart what is being said or read something into it. I find it hard to believe that only the right has the mentally unbalanced listeners. How many listened to those on the left who said it is ok to murder your unborn baby? How many listened to those on the left that said any kind of sex is ok. Maybe it only seems the left doesn't have its share of Rushs, Hannitys, Becks, but somehow they have gotten their message out and it is destroying this country.

Mental unbalance has nothing at all to do with what you mention.

First off, abortion is a woman's personal choice to make. There are plenty of people on the right and left that have had them. As for myself, I trend toward the left, feel abortion is wrong, but will defend the personal freedom of someone to have one.

Second, is the sex thing you mention. Unbelievable that you feel that the left have any monopoly on this. Totally unrealistic. Granted that the "left" may support the gay community more that the right, (and by right I should say the religious fanatics) but to imply that the liberals have somehow corrupted society is just plain ignorant.

The views of the syndicated psychopaths that you mention are broadcast daily to those that choose to listen to it. I prefer to obtain my views from studying a situation and judging all sides, not the parroted views of those bozos. Or even a lot of the left's views for that matter. Judge for yourself, you will be far better off in the long run. And a lot happier, since the shit-stirrers that you mention won't be worrying you about NOTHING.

[barnesfoto]

Another day, another middle aged gun owner shoots 8, kills 3:

Time to start profiling?


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/E1C6CB13C3E8A1B5862576A4004833B8?OpenDocument

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Time to start profiling?"

One guy on one day out of 300 million and 365 days per year. Hardly cause for mass witch hunts and public stonings.

[Stosh]

Quote: "Time to start profiling?"

One guy on one day out of 300 million and 365 days per year. Hardly cause for mass witch hunts and public stonings.

Taking all the fun out of it as usual. Buzzkill.:eek:

[Pam]

A berserk gunwoman this time:



A female shooter was in custody



http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/12/alabama.university.shooting/index.html

[Johnnny5]

The following is from a 2008 article regarding a proposal that would have allowed trained professors and students to carry while on campus. Unfortunately, the bill went nowhere. Would it have prevented today's tragedy? Maybe, maybe not, but we'll never know.



"Alabama's public universities, like most colleges around the country, ban guns on campus.
Erwin's bills would have allowed professors with the proper gun permits to carry their weapons on public college campuses. The bills also would have allowed students to carry guns, provided they met a long lists of requirements, including having the proper permits, completing a gun skills course approved by the university, and participating in the campus' ROTC military training program.
Erwin said the bills were designed to discourage gunmen by making them aware someone could shoot back quickly."

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2008/03/alabama_senate_committee_block.html

[barnesfoto]

a more recent berserk gunman of the week struck Kennesaw, GA, where each head of household is required to own and maintain a gun. As you may remember, despite being a Mecca for gunhuggers, there were no Clint Eastwoods present, and the guy simply killed a bunch of his coworkers.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n15_v46/ai_15729634/


http://www.11alive.com/news/local/st...139611&catid=8

As long as we're on the topic of what "might" had happened, imagine that the ammo used cost 500.00 per shot, due to a nuisance tax on ammunition that "could" be added to the cost of guns and ammo to create a compensation pool for innocent victims of gun violence.

The culprit "might" have had to go out and get a second job to save up the money for the gun and bullets, and as a result, "could" have been too tired to drive to work and shoot her coworkers..

[Zacha341]

Crazy people in general with guns kills people, otherwise what would explain the gun violence in Motown? Right-wingers hold up shooting up de' place, jackin' folks out of their car a gun point, etc. On the other hand Detroit also has a remaining population of law abiding democrat voting citizens (non NRA card carriers) who own guns, who refuse to be victims in their own homes or elsewhere.
Guns don't kill people...crazy Right Wingers with guns kill people.

[Mikeg]

Originally Posted by WolverinesA2 http://detroityes.com/mb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?p=31301#post31301)
Guns don't kill people...crazy Right Wingers with guns kill people.
..... and proof that crazy Left Wingers with guns also kill people - from the Amy Bishop page (http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=392617&page=1) at RateMyProfessors.com:


Bishop makes the class interesting by talking about her research and her friends research...... she is a socialist but she only talks about it after class.

[Hermod]

Crazy people in general with guns kills people, otherwise what would explain the gun violence in Motown? Right-wingers hold up shooting up de' place, jackin' folks out of their car a gun point, etc. On the other hand Detroit also has a remaining population of law abiding democrat voting citizens (non NRA card carriers) who own guns, who refuse to be victims in their own homes or elsewhere.

I don't think I am likely to be shot by a Limbaugh-listening, racist, facist, NRA thug.

I am more likely to be shot by an Obama voter who is trying to "actualize his self-esteem which has been destroyed by the hostile Euro-Centric environment of the US".

[Jimaz]

Yeah, let's start forming opinions based on made-up stuff!


5207 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgm9H3hmH1o&fmt=18)
Last Hand Gun On Earth
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgm9H3hmH1o&fmt=18)
I love the seat belts on the 1950s office chairs. :D

[Zacha341]

Hah! Well how's about that...!

I don't think I am likely to be shot by a Limbaugh-listening, racist, facist, NRA thug.

I am more likely to be shot by an Obama voter who is trying to "actualize his self-esteem which has been destroyed by the hostile Euro-Centric environment of the US".

[Pam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100215/ap_on_re_us/us_church_service_shooting

[barnesfoto]

Perhaps our society needs more trained educators and football players:

LITTLETON, Colo. – Math teacher David Benke says he had no time to fear for his life when he tackled a man he said was preparing to reload a rifle to shoot students at a Colorado middle school who were heading home for the day.
And Benke doesn't consider himself a hero for stopping the 32-year-old accused of wounding two students Tuesday at the Littleton school that's just miles from Columbine High School, the site of one of the nation's deadliest school shootings.
"You know, it bugs me that he got another round off," Benke said of the two shots that authorities say Bruco Strongeagle Eastwood fired.
On Tuesday, Jefferson County Sheriff Ted Mink praised Benke, calling him a hero. Benke, the father of 7-year-old twins and a 13-year-old girl, fought back tears after Mink thanked him.
"I know he feels bad about not being able to intervene sooner, but believe me when I say, I think he stopped what could have been a more tragic event than it was this afternoon," Mink said.
The victims, Deer Creek Middle School students Reagan Webber and Matt Thieu, were both treated at Littleton Adventist Hospital. Spokeswoman Christine Alexander said Webber was treated and released to her home, and Thieu was transferred to another hospital.
Authorities say both victims had surgery Tuesday.

The 6-5, former college basketball player oversees the school's track team. He said another teacher was quickly on the scene and both of them pinned the gunman to the ground.
"I basically have my arms and legs wrapped around him, (the other teacher) has his forearm around his front and we were basically trying to get the guy to quit struggling.
School officials could not immediately confirm the names of other teachers who helped subdue the shooter.
"I talked to him while we were on the ground. I was underneath him and his face was pretty close to mine," Benke said. "I asked him, `Why did you do this? Were you a student here?'
"He either didn't respond or his responses didn't make a whole lot of sense," Benke said.
Denver station KUSA-TV reported that Eastwood attended Deer Creek Middle School in the early 1990s.
Eastwood has an arrest record in Colorado dating back to 1996 for menacing, assault, domestic violence and driving under the influence of alcohol, according to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_colo_school_shooting

[ghettopalmetto]

Makes you wonder when Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly are going to take responsibility for the "revolution" they foment.

Gunman killed after shooting 2 Pentagon police


By MATT APUZZO and DEVLIN BARRETT
Associated Press Writers

WASHINGTON (AP) - A California man killed in a shootout with Pentagon police drove cross-country and arrived at the military headquarters' subway entrance armed with two semiautomatic weapons, authorities said Friday. The shooter apparently left behind Internet postings resentful of the government and airing suspicions about the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1904210

[Hermod]

Makes you wonder when Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly are going to take responsibility for the "revolution" they foment.

Gunman killed after shooting 2 Pentagon police


By MATT APUZZO and DEVLIN BARRETT
Associated Press Writers

WASHINGTON (AP) - A California man killed in a shootout with Pentagon police drove cross-country and arrived at the military headquarters' subway entrance armed with two semiautomatic weapons, authorities said Friday. The shooter apparently left behind Internet postings resentful of the government and airing suspicions about the 9/11 attacks.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1904210

GP: He sounds more like a military hating, leftist, 9-11 truther from that description.

[ejames01]

I thought leftists love BIG Govt?


GP: He sounds more like a military hating, leftist, 9-11 truther from that description.

[Hermod]

I thought leftists love BIG Govt?

Just as there is a libertarian right and an authoritarian right, there is also a libertarian left and an authoritarian left.

This guy, if you read all of his crap was a real "Bush hater".

He wasn't against government so much as against THIS government.

[barnesfoto]

The guy (pentagon shooter) had a strange mishmash of ideas, but based his economic theory (using Marijuana as currency) on the work of Ludwig von Mises, who supported total economic laissez-faire and unrestricted rights to private property.

He also had some apparently serious mental health issues (yet had no problems obtaining guns and ammo) and had studied engineering.

And yet, still no apologies from the leaders of the engineering community.

[Mikeg]

EMID 15324137
STATESOURCE California
DATAACQUIRED 20080121
PrefixTitle MR
LASTNAME,FIRSTNAME,MIDDLENAME Bedell,John,Patrick
SOURCEIDVOTER 30048
DATEOFBIRTH 5/20/1973
PLACEOFBIRTH CA
REGDATE 20051006
GENDER M
PARTY Democrat
ACTIVECODE ACTIVE
STATUS
ResAddr1,ResAddr2,ResCity,ResState,ResZip 110 Georges Dr Hollister,CA
STATEHOUSE 28
STATESENATE 12
USCONGRESS 17
LASTDATEVOTED 20051108

[source (https://www.e-merges.com/voter-lists.html)]

[Pam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100309/ap_on_re_us/us_triple_shooting_osu

[barnesfoto]

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_14697032?source=rss_viewed

[ghettopalmetto]

Yup! All we need is some concealed-carry permits, and we'll have less crime!

Relatives recall Maple Heights man killed in downtown parking lot
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/shooting_victim_life_was_full.html

[Johnnny5]

Yup! All we need is some concealed-carry permits, and we'll have less crime!

Relatives recall Maple Heights man killed in downtown parking lot
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/shooting_victim_life_was_full.html

Am I missing the part where it mentions the shooter having a license to carry? :confused:

[gibran]

this is really scarey :)...

http://midsouthnewz.com/news/national-news/tina-fey-as-leather-clad-palin-you-betcha.html

[Papasito]

(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36892505/ns/us_news-security)http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36892505/ns/us_news-security
‘Could have been a very deadly event’

Mayor: Officials have no idea who planted failed car bomb in Times Square

Police found an "amateurish" but potentially powerful bomb in a smoking sport utility vehicle in Times Square, then cleared the streets of thousands of tourists milling through the landmark district so they could dismantle it, authorities said Sunday.

"We avoided what we could have been a very deadly event," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. "It certainly could have exploded and had a pretty big fire and a decent amount of explosive impact."


nut jobs everywhere.

[Pam]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/19/BAG71EG92P.DTL


A 45-year-old parolee, described by his mother as angry at left-wing politicians, opened fire on California Highway Patrol officers on an Oakland freeway early Sunday and was hit by return fire while wearing body armor, authorities said.

[Jimaz]

A witness said the gunfire lasted for 25 minutes?!

[Papasito]

NEWSFLASH

Nut jobs can be left or right wing

[Jimaz]

NEWSFLASH

Nut jobs can be left or right wingGood reflexes there. :rolleyes:

[Detroit Stylin]

Guns don't kill people...crazy Right Wingers with guns kill people.


I disagree. I'd say Guns don't kill people...crazy Right Wingers who pass and support and legislation that enables righ wing leaning uneduacted manics with guns kill people.

[Papasito]

Good reflexes there.Not according to Detroit Sylin's post # 123.
According to him, left wingers are incapable of violence, and only "crazy Right Wingers who pass and support and legislation that enables right wing leaning uneduacted manics with guns kill people. " Maybe our politicians should be more like the leftist German Workers' Party (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_political_views%23German_Workers. E2.80.99_Party&usg=AFQjCNFDjbZ8BYUC8zfCKKwrjDs0UIM0ig&sa=X&ei=8wRGTJeYDYTGlQfdxq2YBQ&ved=0CCIQygQ)‎ and just take people's guns away. That should curb violence. Sure worked in the past!

Hey, Stylin', are you saying that your typical D-town gangster packing a 9mm is a right wing maniac? I don't think so.

[Detroit Stylin]

Not according to Detroit Sylin's post # 123.
According to him, left wingers are incapable of violence, and only "crazy Right Wingers who pass and support and legislation that enables right wing leaning uneduacted manics with guns kill people. " Maybe our politicians should be more like the leftist German Workers' Party (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_political_views%23German_Workers. E2.80.99_Party&usg=AFQjCNFDjbZ8BYUC8zfCKKwrjDs0UIM0ig&sa=X&ei=8wRGTJeYDYTGlQfdxq2YBQ&ved=0CCIQygQ)‎ and just take people's guns away. That should curb violence. Sure worked in the past!

Hey, Stylin', are you saying that your typical D-town gangster packing a 9mm is a right wing maniac? I don't think so.


They are not constantly invoking the 2nd amendment and advocating that every house in america is stockpiled with enough of an arsenal to invade a small country either....

[Detroit Stylin]

Oh. Neither do they own Firms that manufacture automatic , military style weapons nor have deep pocketed lobbyists in congress to line the pockets of right wing politicians to ease regualtions on firearms, make them more accessible and less liable...

[Detroit Stylin]

So how is that for the average thug in the D who really couldnt give a damn about politics?

[terryh]

A gun isnt going to do any good unless you get 'the jump' on a robber or home invader.Unless you are super quick on the draw and a great shot, being strapped isnt a safety guarantee. Guns can be fun to shoot , shooting at clay pigeons is a blast-no pun intended-but if an enraged-unstable individual goes on a rampage, what is the likelyhood of the shooter getting clipped before pumping out a barrage of bullets?

[Meddle]

what is the likelyhood of the shooter getting clipped before pumping out a barrage of bullets?

Little to none. And what happens downrange of all the vigilantes' line of fire? How conscious are they of their field of fire?

[Papasito]

Home protection should have thought put into it. Choose ammo that will stop the intruder but not go through them, the wall behind them, and into your kid sleeping in bed. Wildly blasting a Dirty Harry style oversized handgun that can blow a hole through someone, travel through two walls, and hit your neighbor is just plain stupid.

[Meddle]

Home protection should have thought put into it. Choose ammo that will stop the intruder but not go through them,

12G, short barrel, .00 Buck

You don't really have to aim, they won't get up, and there's little risk to anyone else.

[barnesfoto]

oh oh, it must be the muslims again, right?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/nyregion/04shooting.html?hpw

[ghettopalmetto]

Home protection should have thought put into it. Choose ammo that will stop the intruder but not go through them, the wall behind them, and into your kid sleeping in bed. Wildly blasting a Dirty Harry style oversized handgun that can blow a hole through someone, travel through two walls, and hit your neighbor is just plain stupid.

I'm not usually one to tell people what to do, but you might want to consider relocating to a safer neighborhood.

[Detroit Stylin]

Home protection should have thought put into it. Choose ammo that will stop the intruder but not go through them, the wall behind them, and into your kid sleeping in bed. Wildly blasting a Dirty Harry style oversized handgun that can blow a hole through someone, travel through two walls, and hit your neighbor is just plain stupid.


Well Shock and Awe.....I actually agree with dude on something....

[ejames01]

Home invasion could happen anywhere.


I'm not usually one to tell people what to do, but you might want to consider relocating to a safer neighborhood.

[Papasito]

you might want to consider relocating to a safer neighborhood.
multi million dollar homes in gated communities are robbed.
so are apartments in the city as well as suburban households.

[Papasito]

FANATIC NUTJOB ENVIRONMENTALIST LOSES IT
AT DISCOVERY TV
9/1/2010

"A gunman with a possible explosive device strapped to himself entered the Discovery Communications building in Silver Spring, Md., Wednesday afternoon and was holding an undetermined number of hostages, police said. "


“I want Discovery Communications to broadcast on their channels to the world their new program lineup and I want proof they are doing so. I want the new shows started by asking the public for inventive solution ideas to save the planet and the remaining wildlife on it,” the alleged manifesto reads, adding:"Nothing is more important than saving ... the Lions, Tigers, Giraffes, Elephants, Froggies, Turtles, Apes, Raccoons, Beetles, Ants, Sharks, Bears, and, of course, the Squirrels. The humans? The planet does not need humans.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38957020/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts

Lee said he experienced an ‘‘awakening” when he watched former Vice President Al Gore’s environmental documentary ‘‘An Inconvenient Truth.”

[Meddle]

The humans? The planet does not need humans.

Well, that part's true. I won't argue with that at all.

[Johnlodge]

Snipe this guy. We don't need to pay for his upkeep, plus per his own manifesto, we'd be doing the planet a favor.

[Meddle]

Snipe this guy.

Ask and ye shall receive.

[barnesfoto]

While we're at it, some of you on this thread, like our friend Pito, have been on the same wavelength as this guy about "overpopulation" . (Naturally, most of the folks who yammer about "overpopulation" are referring to people who are some shade of brown, rather than themselves).

If you too are concerned about overpopulation. consider leading by example and (1) getting a vasectomy (2) Remaining a lifelong virgin and bragging about it like 53 year old republican candidate John Mark Coney of Orlando, FL or

(3) killing yourselves, to directly reduce overpopulation

[Johnlodge]

Since Gannon isn't here yet, let me tell you that this guy was actually programmed by Bildebergers as part of the Georgia Stones depopulation conspiracy.

[Downriviera]

A lot of people were upset about American Coney Island beating out Lafayette. Could the Food Network be next?

[jcole]

A lot of people were upset about American Coney Island beating out Lafayette. Could the Food Network be next?
Actually, that was the Travel Channel

[oladub]

Lee said he experienced an ‘‘awakening” when he watched former Vice President Al Gore’s environmental documentary ‘‘An Inconvenient Truth.”

Papasito, Don't forget that when the FBI raided Ted Kaczynski's Montana cabin, they found a very worn and marked up copy of Al Gore's book Earth In The Balance. Of course, Ted was an ecological bomber rather than an ecological gunman so this may be a bit off topic. This isn't to disparage Nobel Prize winner Al Gore because, among other things, he would probably be more than willing to buy carbon credits from the carbon credit exchange he is a major shareholder of to offset all the houses and cars he owns.

Remaining slightly off topic, this week's Business Week had an article about how New Zealand sheep farmers have reduced their flocks from 70M to 40M sheep because it was more profitable for them to plant some trees to obtain some carbon credit cash for not growing food. If every country could be as progressive as New Zealand in the spirit of Al Gore, Ted Kaczynski, and the Discovery Channel gunman, then we wouldn't be polluting the planet with all the food production. The massive resultant starvation of 'various shades of brown' poor people, as Barnesphoto put it, would be genocide of course but from the perspective of Ted Kaczynski and the Discovery Channel gunman, it would be more efficient than random individual bombings.


:"Nothing is more important than saving ... the Lions, Tigers, Giraffes, Elephants, Froggies, Turtles, Apes, Raccoons, Beetles, Ants, Sharks, Bears, and, of course, the Squirrels. The humans? The planet does not need humans.”

Of course, poor people usually starve first. Who needs guns?

[barnesfoto]

Ah yes! Al Gore's Book is responsible!
As long as we are on the topic of the Unibomber, it should be pointed out that Ted K was an engineer, a trait found in many terrorists, including Mohammed Atta.

Back to Lee: The book that Lee was most obsessed with seems to be "My Ismael" by Daniel Quinn. (As usual, our rightist friends picked one line from the data and ran with it!)
If should come as no surprise that Lee harbored many anti-government sentiments like the engineer who flew his plane into the IRS building a year or so ago (You all might remember Rev Al, er Pito's admiring post about him)

Nor should it come as any surprise that Lee harbored the same sort of paranoid feelings about illegal immigrants that our friends on this board have endlessly typed. Here's one from his list of demands:


5. Immigration: Programs must be developed to find solutions to stopping ALL immigration pollution and the anchor baby filth that follows that. Find solutions to stopping it. Call for people in the world to develop solutions to stop it completely and permanently. Find solutions FOR these countries so they stop sending their
breeding populations to the US and the world to seek jobs and therefore breed more unwanted pollution babies.
FIND SOLUTIONS FOR THEM TO STOP THEIR HUMAN GROWTH AND THE EXPORTATION OF
THAT DISGUSTING FILTH! (The first world is feeding the population growth of the Third World and those
human families are going to where the food is! They must stop procreating new humans looking for nonexistant
jobs!).

Don't suppose that any of the illegal immigrant hysteria that the right is flooding us with had anything to do with his rampage...No, it must be that pesky Al Gore again. It's almost as though somebody is paying people to keep bringing up Al Gore! The election was ten years ago, we're not supposed to talk about Bush anymore, yet Al Gore keeps popping up!

Don't suppose that this is any sort of indicator that it's too easy for crazy people to get guns and ammo, or that we need a better system of mental health care in this country...nope, it must be Al Gore again! It's mind boggling, the number of things that Al Gore seems to be responsible for, (besides being such a wuss that he couldn't mention George Bush's resume in the 2k campaign)

[Papasito]

I thought the right wing radio crowd took yesterday's event way too far. They did thier best to paint environmentalists as a one screw's turn from going berzerk.

Now the next time some nutjob righty goes berzerk and the media blitzes the right wing, the talkers will have no rigth to complain. As long as they keep making wackos a political issue, it works both ways.

Anyone with a brain knows that not all environmentalists are violent nutjobs, just like all muslims are not terrorists, just like all right wingers aren't warmongers, so on and so on.

(Naturally, most of the folks who yammer about "overpopulation" are referring to people who are some shade of brown, rather than themselves).
If we are talking color, aren't Asians (China) the most populous?
As far as I am concerned with population control, people shouldn't be having babies unless they have the means to support them and the committment to raise them. Hmmm what a concept...

I have had 2, that was enough. Having more would cramp thier quality of life, and spread thin the time I can spend with them. It takes a LOT of effort, time and money to raise kids. It's a lifetime committment. I see some people having 4 and 5 kids without having a pot to piss in and totally being unable to ever offer them all a College education or a bright future. Why? Why do it? It's not fair to the kids.

[oladub]

bp, I guess you didn't pick up on my point about cap and trade food shortages having the potential to cause mass starvation which would make the shootings of anyone mentioned in this thread small potatoes. Although no one said that Al Gore's book was responsible for personal ecological terrorism, there is a delicious irony in ecological terrorists (plural) having him on their reading list. After we hear so much about violent rhetoric on the right, it turns out the left has it's share of wackos too.

No one brought up 'immigrants' or 'various shades of brown people' either except you. Good point though about Mohamed Atta being an engineer. I think there were two engineers among the 19 crew members but at least three were 'immigrants' as you call them. The rest had legal or semi-legal immigration status.

The 'filth' referred to in #5 is probably related to the filthy children mentioned in #1, the filth of civilization mentioned in #4, humans are filthy in #6, and the comment made after #11. “Humans are the most destructive, filthy, pollutive creatures around and are wrecking what's left of the planet with their false morals and breeding culture.” All human beings were filthy according to Mr. Lee; not just immigrants. I think his larger concern is people vs. nature. Immigration was just listed as one of the things allowing or encouraging human overpopulation in his mind and he didn't differentiate legal immigration vs. illegal aliens. He is still a leftist. I'll bet he even supports abortion which, by the way, eliminates a higher percentage of brown babies; just one of those liberal quirks like eliminating food for cap and trade credits in a hungry world while Al Gore profits as an owner of the cap and trade exchange.

Papasito brings up an interesting point. Are Asians 'brown people' or yellow people in your book? What about Eurasian children? I see a lot of them in college towns and they don't look very brown to me. Of course, they aren't albinos either.


Papasito, you are too kind. I told my kids that I would pay for up to four year of college room and board and they could go to any college they wanted as long as they paid their own tuition. They worked their tails off in high school and college and all graduated in 3-4 years with zero debt. They are almost as hard working as Asians.

[Downriviera]

Actually, that was the Travel Channel

Thanks for un-confusing me. But isn't it funny how the Travel Channel has food shows and the Food Network has travel shows.

[Pam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100910/ap_on_bi_ge/us_food_plant_shooting

Berserk gunwoman this time:



PHILADELPHIA – Minutes after a woman was suspended from her job at a Kraft Foods Inc. plant and was escorted out, she returned with a handgun and opened fire, killing two people and critically injuring a third before being taken into custody, police said.

[Pam]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_kentucky_fatal_shooting

–
For months, Stanley Neace had shown increasing hostility to his neighbors in rural eastern Kentucky, to the point his landlord started eviction proceedings. On Saturday, Neace snapped over how his wife cooked his eggs, and killed her and four others with a shotgun before shooting himself.