What is the point of the G 20 protesters?

[President Sekou]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-g20-protests,0,5474335.story

So far one person has died, they have clogged up one of my favorite cities protesting what? Capitalism? America? What is going on over there and what is the point?

[Pam]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/28/g20.protests.saturday/

[d.mcc]

My guess would be rampant consumerism and the ability of the G20 countries to have a massive effect on global production and human rights standards around the globe...

[Flanders]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-g20-protests,0,5474335.story

So far one person has died, they have clogged up one of my favorite cities protesting what? Capitalism? America? What is going on over there and what is the point?

Unlike jaded and sheeplike Americans, they dislike getting anal-raped economically by politicians and the ultra-wealthy global corporate capitalists.

[d.mcc]

Unlike jaded and sheeplike Americans, they dislike getting anal-raped economically by politicians and the ultra-wealthy global corporate capitalists.

Yeah...I guess government sanctioned anal-rape would be a solid reason to protest... :cool:

[ccbatson]

Protesting socialism in America actually. Evidence of a major backfire for Obama's agenda.

[d.mcc]

Protesting socialism in America actually. Evidence of a major backfire for Obama's agenda.

Really...is that what they are protesting??? Once again...when did socialism become a stigma???

[Kevgoblu]

They're protesting being anally raped by a bunch of free market extremists, devoid of any moral conviction

[d.mcc]

They're protesting being anally raped by a bunch of free market extremists, devoid of any moral conviction

But its easier to scream, "Down with Socialism" than, "down with being anally raped by a bunch of free market extremists, devoid of any moral conviction"

[Detroitej72]

Europeans love Socialism, therefore, me thinks the are protesting CAPITALISM!!!


All kidding aside, these are IMO, a bunch of kids with too much time on their hands.

[oladub]

Watching CNN, my wife pointed out that the news likes to take pictures of the protesters and mention how many were arrested but the news doesn't interview them to find out what their views are.

[oladub]

The sign does get a message out but:

A.) They live in England so how would they know?

B.) Did the Labor Government print the nice sign?

[Johnlodge]

That picture makes it seem that nobody over the age of 30 is interested in this protest.

[Johnlodge]

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/attachment.php?attachmentid=257&stc=1&d=1238706820

[Flanders]

The media will commonly portray protesters as being prone to violence and destruction of property, when in reality, it is often the result of agents provocateurs and anarchists attempts to create friction between the police and the protesters, causing relatively peaceful protesting to turn into rioting.

[oladub]

If you think that Great Britain is socialist, then you don't understand what the word means.

Or maybe the protesters don't know what capitalism is. Perhaps they are confusing it with corporatism which is an ugly hybrid of corporate and governmental interests - for example, when governments bail out banks and stick the populace with the ownership of the bad loans.

Since I never mentioned 'socialism', perhaps you could instruct us about what it means. Don't forget to include the unicorns and rainbows.

[oladub]

In this instance with the banks, it is corporatist. Some references are also using the word 'feudal'. Capitalism would allow banks that wasted their money on bad investments or huge executive bonuses to die. Smaller, more disciplined banks would pick up the pieces. Under corporatism, or economic fascism, the government bails out the banks, executives continue to live comfortably and contribute to friendly politicians, and the bad loans are charged to taxpayers. I am not knowledgable about the specifics of the British banking system. However, in the case of our own banking system, if there are similarities, Woodrow Wilson created the Federal Reserve, composed of a collection of private banks not completely US owned. The Federal Reserve was entrusted with controlling our monetary policy. It has since been allowed to create at least three bubbles resulting in major economic downturns in 1921, 1929, and 2007. The government, at least in '29 and '08 dug the hole deeper by trying to bail us out using the same tools that dug the hole e.g. paying farmers to burn crops or pumping more money into the already overbuilt housing market to prop up the bubble.

If our government wanted to challenge the bankers instead of buoying them, it could eliminate the Federal Reserve. If it is less bold and wanted to at least have a measure of transparency, it could take the baby step of passing HR 1207 - now with 55 sponsors, to find out what the Fed is up to.

We are going through a market correction in response to the meddling policies of the Federal Reserve and federal government. We have to go through that correction. That is why it is called a correction. The question is if the Fed and government will allow a correction or keep trying to inflate the collapsing bubble.



(economic) Fascism is "socialism with shareholders". Communism is the official abolition of private property. That's not hair-splitting.
Under (economic) Fascism, private property remains in force for those with government patronage. Its only abolished for everyone else! -Brit4RonPaul

[ccbatson]

European governments seem to love socialism and are unraveling as a result. The protestors however, are not government representatives, but the citizens on the front lines losing and suffering to the socialistic trends over there.

When did socialism become a stigma? Always...most acutely after witnessing what happened in the USSR.

[Ray1936]

That picture makes it seem that nobody over the age of 30 is interested in this protest.

That's close, but I can guarantee you that nobody over the age of 70 gives a care at all. Further, I think the young man breaking the windows on the Bank of Scotland building should have been shot on the spot. Or at least had the shit kicked out of him.

[oladub]

You aren't following. Corporatists include both the bankers and their government pals. You are trying to break it down into bankers bad, government good or at least Democrats good. And yes, as Catherine Austin Fitts has described it, one of the functions of Fannie/Freddie, for instance, is to package loans up in order to finance 'black' government operations by selling the same loan multiple times. If we don't deal with corruption, we are just spitting into the wind. The Republicans made a mess and Obama is making the mess bigger. If you are not a fan of bailouts, then don't support them.

[oldredfordette]

The protests were attended by all kinds of people, the news media very obediently focused on the work of the small groups of violent protesters, while ignoring the obvious provocation of the police, and ignoring the real issues at hand. Which are: these banks had a good time with our money, and now we're expected to pay for their bailout. Really and truly, doesn't it make you want to grab a rock?

[Johnlodge]

The protests were attended by all kinds of people, the news media very obediently focused on the work of the small groups of violent protesters, while ignoring the obvious provocation of the police, and ignoring the real issues at hand. Which are: these banks had a good time with our money, and now we're expected to pay for their bailout. Really and truly, doesn't it make you want to grab a rock?

Not really, because not being an extremist, I stop and think about the repercussions of such an action on myself and my own community, and the reality that such an action doesn't generally achieve the desired results.

[Pam]

This picture is interesting. Window smashing guy surrounded by a mob of reporters. Makes you wonder if it was staged.

[oladub]

I agree with your second paragraph but it is too simple to say this is just a problem of deregulation created by both Republicans and Democrats - or in your case, just Republicans.. These problems go back decades. If you are concerned about deregulation, you might consider have you Representative co-sign HR 1207 for starters.


the Accounting and Auditing Act of 1950. The relevant section, 31 USC 714(b), dictated that congressional audits of the Federal Reserve may not include "deliberations, decisions and actions on monetary policy matters." The exemption, as Foss notes, "basically includes everything." According to the law, in other words, the Fed simply cannot be audited by Congress. Or by anyone else, for that matter. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/7

HR1207 would allow Congress to at least peek inside of the private banks that compose the Fed.

There were also laws written in 1947 and 1949 that allow the federal government to fund secret operations by allowing agencies to divert money. I call this corruption, perhaps you don't. Between $4-10T has disappeared from the federal budget. To me, that's a problem. I realize we weren't taught this in civics class and posts from 'mybarachobama.com' don't mention these things.

If you don't like the example of linking Fannie http://solari.com/archive/freddie-fannie-penny-stocks/ to corruption, then try HUD. http://www.dunwalke.com/sidebars/andrew_cuomo.htm I could go on. The lady that writes this was inside the Bush 1 administration and contracted housing services to the Clinton administration.


That still doesn't answer my question about what economic system you think that Great Britain has and why you think that the British are not qualified to comment on capitalism -Speramus Meliora

A question asked after I asked that you define socialism being sure to include references to unicorns and rainbows - still unanswered except to dismiss Stalin as a bad socialist. Not being one to duck a question though, I will try. Answer: Britian has a hybrid economic system that includes vestiges of its former robber barron style capitalism with increasingly corporatist policies uniting the heads of industry, government and labor. Globs of socialist policy are tossed to the masses, by the increasinly corporatist power structure, to keep them harmless and at bay.

[oldredfordette]

Pam, I've long thought the masked "anarchists" were agent provocateurs, they turn the debate from the issues and give the cops reason to wade in with batons.

I've spoken to a couple of British friends who were at the demos, they confirmed my suspicions. A person needs to read between the lines and the paragraphs to get the real story.

[oladub]

Getting back to responding to President Sekou's OP-

The BBC has some good coverage of the protesters.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/g20_video/default.stm

[Pam]

Pam, I've long thought the masked "anarchists" were agent provocateurs, they turn the debate from the issues and give the cops reason to wade in with batons


Anything is possible, but that particular picture looks like the media gave the guy money to smash the window so they could get some action footage.

[ccbatson]

The banks did what they did by coercion from our government...the CRA or socialized housing. A capitalist revoultion is hopefully afoot in the upcoming few years. The world desperately needs it.

[oladub]

Speramus Meliora, My links were red pills. I think you would be happier with the blue ones e.g. Republicans=bad, Democrats=real good, etc.. For heaven's sake, one of the my links "based on conjecture and guilt by association and bordering on conspiracy theories", as you put it, was from Rolling Stone Magazine directly quoting a law.

You continue to attribute things to me I never said. You ask me a question and criticize my answer. I ask you a question and you suggest I Google it.


So you are saying that the prices, production and distribution of all goods in Great Britain are determined soley by a cabal of government and corporate leaders instead of a free market? Do you have any sources for that?

No, I didn't even suggest 'soley' anything. That was your conjecture which I don't even agree with.


According to your "analysis" Great Britain is Corporatist, Socialist, AND capitalist. Why not throw in Communist and Fascist for good measure? Anyone who took a political science class in their lifetime would classify Great Britain as a capitalist system. Yes, there are elements of socialism (as there should be and as there are in every government anywhere in the world) and their might even be element of corporatism that are being implemented in the current crisis, but the system still remains overwhelmingly capitalist in nature.

Actually, what I wrote per your request was "Britian has a hybrid economic system that includes vestiges of its former robber barron style capitalism with increasingly corporatist policies uniting the heads of industry, government and labor. Globs of socialist policy are tossed to the masses, by the increasinly corporatist power structure, to keep them harmless and at bay." Previously (4/2/9 6:31pm post), I equated 'economic facism' with corporatism. You missed that.

[Ghetto_butterfly]

Europeans love Socialism, therefore, me thinks the are protesting CAPITALISM!!!


All kidding aside, these are IMO, a bunch of kids with too much time on their hands.
Actually you're not joking, it IS what they are protesting - Capitalism, as it was reported on the News here (Germany)

[Ghetto_butterfly]

European governments seem to love socialism and are unraveling as a result. The protestors however, are not government representatives, but the citizens on the front lines losing and suffering to the socialistic trends over there.

When did socialism become a stigma? Always...most acutely after witnessing what happened in the USSR.
CCbatson, funny as usually. Yes we do love Socialism in Europe, one of the main reasons why I left the US and went back. However, please explain how any of the European governments are unraveling as a result of Socialism.

[oladub]

Speramus Meliora, I think one of the problems we are having in this discussion is the fluidity of terms. You just took the position that Great Britian is 'capitalist' right after Ghetto-Butterfly said that Europe was socialist. If Britain was included in her definition of Europe, then either you have different definitions of capitalist/socialist or one of you is wrong.

That is why I tried to be careful describing and differentiating capitalism from corporatism when describing the collusion of government and large corporations. I prefer the term 'corporatism' to 'economic fasicm' because it doesn't bring up images of goosestepping. But it was Musseloni, himself, who said they are one in the same.

As a great example of what I was trying to define corporatism in post 4-2-9 6:31pm, here is a stunning video explaining how Treasury Secretary and tax cheat Geithner is systematically looting taxpayers to buoy his banker buddies. If this isn't an example of corporatism, I don't know what is. His plan puts him right up there with Phil Gramm as a culprit. He's your guy and he is stealing huge amounts of money from Americans and giving it to bankers. Glad he is on your team and not mine.

Geithner Plan II http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-arbfLTCtI

To summarize for anyone who doesn't have 12 minutes, large banks receiving money from the Fed and the Treasury can keep the money and at very little cost to themselves set up a shell corporation based on that money. If and when the shell corporation goes bankrupt, the bank looses a small amount of money while the taxpayers are still on the hook for the much larger Fed and Treasury chunk of lost change. Meanwhile, the bank still has most of the Fed and Treasury money. This Geithner plan allows the banks to transfer their toxic assets to taxpayers and remain solvent. Timmy doesn't have a white hat afterall. He is a world class corporatist by my defintion or 'evil capitalist' by your definition.

[oladub]

Actually, Ghetto_butterfly wrote, "Yes we do love Socialism in Europe, one of the main reasons why I left the US and went back." The way I understand that sentence, including the last half you chose to omit, is that she loves Socialism in Europe. I didn't call Europe 'socialist'.

You still don't seem to understand the concept of corporatism. It is a collusion of big government and corporations. Yes, that concept was extremely developed in Musseloni's Italy, Yes, there is more and more of such collusion in many other countries including Europeana countries and the US. I just provided a splendid example regarding Geithner, bankers, and taxpayers. Here is another article covering the same topic.
More Ugly Details Emerge On "Geithner's Heist America Plan" (http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/04/more-ugly-details-emerge-on-geithners.html)

Yes, I would prefer that the corrupt and ill managed banks be allowed to go bankrupt. Take it out of the skin of their managers and stockholders instead of US taxpayers as the Geithner plan would do. This is funny. You're the Democrat and you are in the mega-banker's corner with Geithner wile I'm looking out for American taxpayers.

[Ghetto_butterfly]

When I say Europe, I mean the EU (European Union) which includes by now also some of the former socialist/communist countries such as Poland, Slowakia, etc. These countries had a true socialist or communist form of government, contrary to the other countries in the EU, which have a democracy as a form of government.
I don't mean the socialist form of government as it was practiced in the former USSR and Eastern Bloc countries. I mean that in the EU Socialism is being practiced as a mentality and way of life, from an economical and a society point of view. I have lived almost equal amount of years in Europe and in the US and have seen both way of lives first hand. At some point, I have concluded that Capitalism, as practiced in the US is not for me, never was and never will be and hence returned to Europe.

And I'm a She.

[oladub]

Ghetto_butterfly, Thank you for the clarification.

Speramus Meliora, Dear Bankers' Friend, No, no, no, no - you still don't get the definition of corporatism. The very fact that the government is giving money to banks, Wall Street, insurance companies, auto companies, etc is by definition corporatism. Capitalism would let failed companies expire. The bailouts are already a collusion of government largess which is an expression of socialism, and corporate capitalism that favors the largest corporations over small business and ma and pa enterprises. It is the worst of both worlds. If you support Geithner, Bush, Obama. Paulson, Frank, Dodd, Phil Gramm, etc. that is what you are supporting. Their policies overlap almost seamlessly. Those who support their policies have led us into a depression/ and are prolonging it with their idiotic inflationary attack on the value of the dollar. When all this printing press money eventually floods the country to purchase the same amout of goods and services, prices will skyrocket. The poor and those on fixed incomes will suffer the most.

Neither the Republicans , Democrats, not the unaccountable Federal Reserve were looking out for the American Taxpayer when they got us into this mess. And they sure aren't looking out for us now by heaping all this debt on us. "“Our kids are the ultimate credit market, and the rest of us are all pre-approved!” “Isn’t it terrific to be able to stick it to the young? I mean, imagine how bad all this economic-type stuff would be if our kids and grandkids hadn’t offered to pick up the tab.” -Mark Steyn & the Mogambo Guru

[ccbatson]

Nationalize the banks?? Quick suggestion libs...go to the library and read up on the history of communist Russia, and even better, if you are able to speak to a refuge from Russia about how utopian Marxism turned out, you will buy yourself a very cheap and very enlightening education.

[jams]

How does one speak to a "refuge"?

[ccbatson]

Example...A Russian jewish person successfully exits Russia as a refuge from there...they take up residence in the US, and you talk to them.

[jams]

Try refugee

[ccbatson]

Try dictionary.com, and relaxing the retentive spelling tendencies.

[jams]

Try learning to spell in the common language.

[ccbatson]

"Common language" Did you just make that up?

[jams]

You are not a True Conservative if you are unable to speak English by established standards.

[ccbatson]

Half measures, when it comes to socialism, are worthless if the core ideology is maintained...witness Russia in the above (your) example, and Communist China.

[ccbatson]

No need...brevity is the soul of wit.

Half measures when it comes to socialism...meaning pseudo capitalism in a socialist/communist system...DOES NOT and CAN NOT work in the long run.

[ccbatson]

Your own words are the best refutation of your point possible, so wrong at face value. Good job.