What If U.S. Collapses? Soviet Collapse Lessons Every American Needs To Know

[DetroitDad]

This is a collection of tables, images, and text, so I can't post the whole thing here. It is a very thought provoking read, and gets pretty good by the end.

http://madconomist.com/what-if-us-collapses-soviet-collapse-lessons-every-american-needs-to-know

[Sstashmoo]

The whole article is assuming we're helpless and hopeless, we're not. Americans are the most resourceful and industrious people on the planet. Drive through the remote areas in the south. These people in many areas still exist on not much of anything. Economic collapse would just be business as usual for many of them.

[ccbatson]

Yes Sstash...we were, and still are resourceful. All the more reason to resist and then oust the liberal socialist Obama before he neuters us all.

[jiminnm]

What if the U.S. collapses?

That's the wrong thing to worry about. What if Krakatoa or Anak Krakatoa blows and blanks out the sun again? Better yet, what if an large asteroid or comet strikes the earth? What if Martians land? OMG !!

[gibran]

and put in whom cc ..the people that got us into this mess to begin with...

[jams]

Yes Sstash...we were, and still are resourceful. All the more reason to resist and then oust the liberal socialist Obama before he neuters us all.
Military coup? Assassination? Impeachment?

Last I heard the people elect a president in a vote to elect an electoral college to determine the winner and then accept and live with the result.

Many of us were unhappy with Bush/Cheney, but we lived with them until their term ended.

Sorry, Bucko, this is no Batsonia, it is a land and country based on the rule of law, learn to live with it!

[edgewood]

I am not happy with President Obama either, but what a bunch of crybaby sour grapes there are out there !

[Detroitej72]

Its funny, when the left complained about Bush, they right said they were unpatriotic. When the right complains about Obama, they are being patriotic!

Such double standards.

[Lorax]

Shape-shifting repugincans, that's all they know how to do.

Just assume that when a right winger says one thing, it means the opposite.

And just like a lawyer, you know he's lying when his lips are moving.

[MCP-001]

"As former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher once observed, "The problem with socialism is that you run out of other people's money." (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/browne/s_611616.html)

Not quite communism, but the end result is still the same.

[ccbatson]

Socialism is the road to Communism.

[bailey]

And just like a lawyer, you know he's lying when his lips are moving.

Except when he's arguing your cause or one with which you agree...then his motives are pure as the driven snow.

[ccbatson]

Obama is a very very good liar and practitioner of the deceptive arts...much better than CLinton was (he was/is a pathologic liar)

[ghettopalmetto]

Obama is a very very good liar and practitioner of the deceptive arts...much better than CLinton was (he was/is a pathologic liar)

For someone that surely bills $300 an hour or more for his opinion, are you sure you just want to be throwing it around for free like that? I mean, the two seconds it took you to develop that thought and type it just cost you at least $0.17.

[rb336]

Obama is a very very good liar and practitioner of the deceptive arts...much better than CLinton was (he was/is a pathologic liar)


show me one lie and prove it's a lie and not a changed position based on new information or just shut the F up already

[ccbatson]

One? He doesn't want to own GM according to his words, but his actions assure government stake and ownership.

Happy?

[Detroitej72]

Socialism is the road to Communism.

So, when can we expect most of Europe to become communist? Oh, wait, Eastern Europe threw off the chains of communism several years ago.

Nice try though.

[DetroitDad]

The whole article is assuming we're helpless and hopeless, we're not. Americans are the most resourceful and industrious people on the planet. Drive through the remote areas in the south. These people in many areas still exist on not much of anything. Economic collapse would just be business as usual for many of them.

There was discussion on another forum I read, it was about how all the people who were waiting in line at gas stations for gas in California didn't have enough resourcefulness and sense to get out, park their car, and wait in line with a five or ten gallon gas can instead of running out of gasoline. Yeah, Americans are the epitome of resourcefulness alright. :rolleyes:

Are you sure it is us who are resourceful, and not just our grandparents or great grandparents? What we are seeing right now is a build up of consequences of past mistakes along with a massive inability to manage. Isn't one of the things outlined in Marxism that the people of a capitalistic society eventually become mindless (not innovative, unable to manage, not resourceful, etc.)?



Marx's Theory of Alienation is based upon his observation that in emerging industrial production under capitalism, workers inevitably lose control of their lives and selves, in not having any control of their work. Workers never become autonomous, self-realized human beings in any significant sense, except the way the bourgeois want the worker to be realized. Alienation in capitalist societies occurs because in work each contributes to the common wealth, but can only express this fundamentally social aspect of individuality through a production system that is not publicly(socially) owned, but privately owned, for which each individual functions as an instrument, not as a social being:

'Let us suppose that we had carried out production as human beings. Each of us would have in two ways affirmed himself and the other person. 1) In my production I would have objectified my individuality, its specific character, and therefore enjoyed not only an individual manifestation of my life during the activity, but also when looking at the object I would have the individual pleasure of knowing my personality to be objective, visible to the senses and hence a power beyond all doubt. 2) In your enjoyment or use of my product I would have the direct enjoyment both of being conscious of having satisfied a human need by my work, that is, of having objectified man’s essential nature, and of having thus created an object corresponding to the need of another man’s essential nature. ... Our products would be so many mirrors in which we saw reflected our essential nature.'" (Comment on James Mill)
Marx attributes four types of alienation in labour under capitalism. These include the alienation of the worker from his or her ‘species essence’ as a human being rather than a machine; between workers, since capitalism reduces labour to a commodity to be traded on the market, rather than a social relationship; of the worker from the product, since this is appropriated by the capitalist class, and so escapes the worker's control; and from the act of production itself, such that work comes to be a meaningless activity, offering little or no intrinsic satisfactions.

Marx also put emphasis on the role of religion in the alienation process, independently from his famous quote on the opium of the masses.

Simply put and taken directly from George Ritzer's: "Contemporary Sociological Theory and Its Roots", the four types of alienation of workers from capitalist/owners are: -Activities of the workers are chosen by the owners, capitalist; who in return pay them. -Ownership of production/product in hands of capitalist. -Workers are likely to be separated from their fellow workers. -Workers driven away from their potential and tasks become mindless.


What really would be scary is that communism failed, and so if capitalism fails, and socialism is a transitionary area, what is left? Is this an economic Rubik's Cube?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "people who were waiting in line at gas stations for gas in California didn't have enough resourcefulness and sense to get out, park their car, and wait in line with a five or ten gallon gas can instead of running out of gasoline."

Idiots, and there are armies of them. If our economy collapses, it will not be pretty. Many would have a very rough go of it. Many would manage though.

That's why I keep harping about our trade crisis, that our current President is backpedaling away from for some strange reason. A ten year old kid could see where our country is headed without manufacturing and "hoping" to rely on some "service" based economy. .

So far, their plan is leave the trade doors open, and matter of fact, open them wider. And borrow "our" money back, and pump into our broken system, so people can turn right around and send it back to our debtor. The most remarkable thing about it is how complacent everyone seems to be about this catastrophe. Virtually no outrage. A wise man once said: "this country will be taken with out a shot fired" How right he was.

[ccbatson]

"If our economy collapses" Stash? What do you think it is doing now?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "What do you think it is doing now?"

Just appeasing those in denial. :)

They're working on a "Free trade" agreement with South Korea now. South Korean President Lee is urging our companies to pressure congress to move swiftly and ratify. We're screwed folks.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gT474CMPaZtgcVj3Bt9IaeHkoDBwD98S2SH00

[ccbatson]

Much better, now, why is it collapsing so rapidly?

Quick hint, it has nothing to do with inheritance and everything to do with spending like a madman.

[Lorax]

Obama is a very very good liar and practitioner of the deceptive arts...much better than CLinton was (he was/is a pathologic liar)

Dick Cheney is the Father of Lies.

Compassionate Conservatism is an oxymoron.

George Bush is just a moron.

[Lorax]

Socialism is the road to Communism.

Now I know what the CC stands for- it's a contraction of Confucius.

Confucius Batson say: Conservatism is the road to Fascism.

...and little starch in final rinse keep rinkle away. :D

[rb336]

One? He doesn't want to own GM according to his words, but his actions assure government stake and ownership.

Happy?


good god -- i do not believe you think people are stupid enough to buy that as a lie. sometimes expedience requires that we do what has to be done to avoid catastrophic results. I guess that incredibly simple-minded absolutism to which you subscribe doesn't allow for pragmatic action

[ccbatson]

Expediance and pragmatism areTHE worst excuses for a lie imaginable.

But thank you for admitting that I was right Rb.

[jams]

Expediance and pragmatism areTHE worst excuses for a lie imaginable.

But thank you for admitting that I was right Rb.
You're assuming that one agrees that it was a lie in the first place.

[rb336]

Expediance and pragmatism areTHE worst excuses for a lie imaginable.

But thank you for admitting that I was right Rb.


bats, where exactly did i say you were right? you still haven't given me one actual lie (for simplicity's sake, we'll define that as a purposefully false comment presented as truth when the person who made it knew it was false, like 99% of your comments here)

[Detroitej72]

One? He doesn't want to own GM according to his words, but his actions assure government stake and ownership.

Happy?

Would the neo-cons be happy if GM failed and was sold off to the Chinese?

What Obama did was save a great American company, and, thousands of jobs.

The right wing used the whole "ends justify the means" for the past 8 years, yet now when someone of another ideology uses it, they are considered wrong.

Thats what I call flip flopping on principles, or, more accurately, hypocritical.

[ccbatson]

As if that were the only option...standard bankruptcy reorganization without Obama firing the CEO, seizing chunks for labor and big government while pushing the secured debt holders to the back of the line (illegally) is what should have happened.

[rb336]

gee, bats, your CONSERVATIVE supreme court disagrees with you on the legality issue. As for the moral issues, labor has given up HUGE chunks over the last 15 years, it is about time they get something back. screw the speculators, that is the price you pay for making a gamble. capitalism 101.

[oladub]

The article that this thread is based on is about reasons that Russians weathered their country's collapse better than he expects Americans will. I've been reading about 'tapeworm economics' lately. The concept is based on the the relationship between a tapeworm and its host. Tapeworms inject chemicals into their host's systems that make their hosts desire more of the kind of nutricion good for tapeworms. Hosts are sapped of their strength as their desire to meet to demand of tapeworms increases. In tapeworm economics, hosts do not recognize the bad economy's causes. Instead, they demand more of the same things that took the life out of the economy. At least the Russians were smart enough to know that much of what their government told them was lies. Americans are, by contrast, burping on their blue pills thinking that politicians who have almost consistantly sold them out have some great new fixes for their discomfort.

[DetroitDad]

Much better, now, why is it collapsing so rapidly?

Quick hint, it has nothing to do with inheritance and everything to do with spending like a madman.

I think it might be worth considering that both sides played a role in this, mainly because of some of the issues they deny or downplay, but also because of their constant bickering. This is the road The Right and The Left together have led us down.

Both Republicans and Democrats have repeatedly screwed us over, it's only their methods that are different.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Both Republicans and Democrats have repeatedly screwed us over, it's only their methods that are different."

Exactly..

[ccbatson]

A matter of longstanding political wisdom is that all politicians, right and left, tend to overspend progressively. However, the left with zeal and to a far greater degree than the right. Obama has brought that piece of folklore into reality very rapidly.

[turkeycall]

"If our economy collapses" Stash? What do you think it is doing now?

The economy has certainly not already collapsed and doesn't seem to be in the process of collapsing.

After making shut-in and hospital calls today, I stopped at a Speedway c-store, bought a 24 oz. beer and some chips. I gave the clerk a fifty-dollar bill and she gave me change. It was real American money, too.

That's a sure sign the economy has not collapsed and is not collapsing.

[ccbatson]

Turkey, being in denial doesn't make your perception reality.

[rb336]

Turkey, being in denial doesn't make your perception reality.

ah, you should heed your own advice, bats. you are, after all, the #1 denier of facts that controvert your dear little dogma

[ccbatson]

Sigh...once again Rb, an example? Just one?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "It was real American money, too."

Did it say "Federal reserve note" on it?

I know you're joking about the economy not collapsing, but Chrysler is ready to reopen seven plants very soon. That's encouraging.

[WolverinesA2]

"If our economy collapses" Stash? What do you think it is doing now?

The Dow Jones Industrial Average is higher today than it was when Bush left office.

[oladub]

Goldman Sachs stock was selling for $59.20 a share on the day Obama became President. Today , it closed at $143.13 a share. I keep telling people to invest in companies that invest in Obama . They do well.

[ccbatson]

By a mere smidge, look at the long term trends, and remember that markets are aware that Obama was coming at the time.

80 dollars a share by taxpayer money stolen and given to Goldman sachs...shouldn't we get a calculated number of shares in them?

[Detroitej72]

Sigh...once again Rb, an example? Just one?

You continue to bury your head in the sand regarding climate change even as most credible scientists say there is cause for concern.

[DetroitDad]

If I had to describe myself in this moment of economic chaos, I would say I am the grizzled sergeant, war weary, caught in the zone of instinctive awareness that combat veterans have. In order to survive you become a detached, cynical professional. In the sense of college degrees I am a rank amateur. However, over the last decade I have called the economic sphere pretty well. Perhaps the timing has been off, but I have nailed the trends perfectly. It takes a while for a two inch garden hose to fill a swimming pool, but it will fill it. Likewise, the endless debt, credit and bubbles of the last 25 years are finally reaching critical mass. It is no longer a matter of whether we have an economic collapse. No it is a matter of the scope, the intensity and the social chaos that economic collapse causes. My moniker over at Tree of Liberty is Doomer Doug, so I know what I am talking about. In a phrase, it is not coming: it is here.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=148949

[WolverinesA2]

By a mere smidge, look at the long term trends, and remember that markets are aware that Obama was coming at the time.

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=^DJI#chart1:symbol=^dji;range=1y;indicat or=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0 ;logscale=on;source=undefined

Notice the trend from October 1 to October 10, when the DJIA lost over 2000 points. Were the "markets aware that Obama was coming at the time" even though the election was still a month away?

You will do anything to avoid blaming Bush and everything to blame Obama, even if it means you must resort to lies and intellectual dishonesty. You are a sad, pathetic child.

[ccbatson]

Yes, the markets were able to see the handwriting on the wall (called polls) 1 month before an election.