Michigan Tribes Take the Lead on Green

[gazhekwe]

Governor Granholm and Michigan Tribes sign accord to reduce greenhouse gasses



June 12, 2009


Sault Ste. Marie - Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm and 12 Sovereign Tribes of Michigan signed an accord to fight Global Warming by reducing greenhouse gasses. Governor Granholm and Tribal Leaders have been leading their respective nations in addressing Global Warming and re-energizing what Michigan does best, manufacture a new century’s transition to a green economy that is the fastest job creator in the state. (emphasis added)
...
In addition to Granholm, the accord was also signed by leaders of the following tribes:

Bay Mills Indian Community
Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians
Hannahville Indian Community
Keweenaw Bay Indian Community
Lac Vieux Desert Band of Lake Superior Chippewa
Little River Band of Ottawa Indians
Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians
Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians
Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi Indians
Pokagon Band of Potawatomi Indians
Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe
Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians



http://michiganmessenger.com/20852/granholm-signs-global-warming-agreement-with-indian-tribes

[ccbatson]

As long as it isn't binding law imposed on the free will and liberty of thinking individuals.

[gazhekwe]

No, silly. It's about the JOBS. You should be getting right in line there. Follow the money, honey.

[ccbatson]

No thank you...fake government jobs paid for by taxpayers to pursue a fake concept like man made global warming which will further limit individual liberty as idiots chase their tails trying to decrease their carbon footprint (except the biggest idiot, Al Gore himself) for absolutely no reason other than to enrich the conmen and women behind this farce.

[Stosh]

No thank you...fake government jobs paid for by taxpayers to pursue a fake concept like man made global warming which will further limit individual liberty as idiots chase their tails trying to decrease their carbon footprint (except the biggest idiot, Al Gore himself) for absolutely no reason other than to enrich the conmen and women behind this farce.

Once again, CC, you're talking out of your behind.
Eliminate Global Warming from the picture for a minute.Job creation in the renewable energy field is a desirable thing, both for labor and business (your beloved "producers"). Imagine that renewable energy can be used as a catalyst toward reuse of properties currently abandoned? Can you envision saving businesses money by designing energy efficient buildings that will save their businesses cold hard cash in energy costs?

Judging from your previous postings, this hasn't crossed your mind. Are there "producers" willing to save the world? Sure. But you, sadly aren't one of them. Rand would be dissapointed, I think.

[gibran]

Flat Landers of the world unite...

[ccbatson]

Job creation in the form of taxpayer funded subsidized to create a market that doesn't exist for an inferior and more costly product than already exists, while, at the same time blockading domestic energy (oil) exploration and independence and penalizing its' use while artificially driving up the price to line the pockets of the Saudis???

Wonderful idea...if you are a Marxist like Obama.

[Bigb23]

Job creation in the form of taxpayer funded subsidized to create a market that doesn't exist for an inferior and more costly product than already exists, while, at the same time blockading domestic energy (oil) exploration and independence and penalizing its' use while artificially driving up the price to line the pockets of the Saudis???

Wonderful idea...if you are a Marxist like Obama.

And we have found a typical Cc post. To line the pockets of the Saudis???

[ccbatson]

Yes, if we do not tap our vast oil resources, the supply in the market diminishes and the price goes up...more profit for the Saudis.

Did anyone else notice how the per barrel prices plummeted when Bush announced a lifting of an executive prohibition on offshore drilling, and more so when the congress relented on the moratorium? Even more telling is the increases now that Obama has reinstituted the government blockage of domestic energy exploration. Liberals were erroneously attributing the earlier drop in price to decrease in demand secondary to the economic downturn...however, demand/use (and unfortunately, the economy) have not recently rebounded, so there goes that theory as the price passes 70 dollars a barrel again.

[gazhekwe]

Thiink of it this way, CC. If we do not start planning for Seven Generations into the future, this world will be in a lot of hurt for our great great grandchildren.

The price of oil going up is actually a good thing, because it forces that large block of people who think only of themselves to start thinking of the consequences of excess consumption. They then have a reason to join those who think further ahead than the dollar in their own pocket.

Welcome to the world of the responsible.

[oladub]

Bats, What's your problem with this? The article said absolutely nothing about any new government spending. If the tribal representatives believe in global warming, it only makes sense for them to act on their beliefs and pursue their collective happiness. Even if global warming does turn out to be a little hyped, oil is a finite and dirty resource. Its cost will be going up. What these tribes seem to be doing is no different than the decision made in millions of households regarding purchasing more fuel efficient cars or turning out unused lights.

[mjs]

Boy, you people sure read what you want to read between the lines. The article mentions nothing about jobs. How many times do you have to eat the shit sandwhich Granholm tells you is a meatball sub before you realize you're being handed yet another shit sandwhich?

"re-energizing what Michigan does best, manufacture a new century’s transition to a green economy that is the fastest job creator in the state."

What a crock of shit. We're still building coal plants and finally starting hybrids seven years after the Prius was introduced to market and most of the jobs we were supposed to get with Granholm's wonderful tax breaks and worldwind tours have never materialized. What jobs have really been created? 50, maybe 100 at most. Most corporations have bigger janitorial staffs than that. Are we even in the top 20 States for real actual working live projects?

An actress/attorney signed a piece of paper with a bunch of people who don't know shit about engineering or innovation saying they'll have a couple of meetings a year. Call me when GE or Siemens is breaking ground. You guys need to raise your standards a whole whole lot higher. This region has the problems it does because people get all excited about a big change when something happens like a second rate company changing their mission statement. Its all smoke and mirrors and bullshit and if I'm blown away at all, I'm blown away by the stupidity of people that still believe talk over results.

Watch Dirty Job's "Brown before Green" episodes and then when you see the brown jobs appearing here, you'll know Michigan's benefits are more than just hype. If we're smart we can invent cost effective ways to save the planet, such as the energy efficient light bulbs or turning toxic waste in building materials. If it can't be justified on a cost basis, it will be replaced by something that can, and the place that does that will be exporting patented products and methods rather than jobs and population. Right now, California is going to beat our asses silly because their standards mean they have to innovate and once the product is available, everyone will decide to switch to California standards.

[gazhekwe]

We are working on a whole different plane. For Anishinaabek, the time of the Seventh Fire approaches, when the light-skinned race will be faced with two roads. One road leads to peace, the other returns to the destruction they brought here with them. Will we see the Eighth Fire, the fire of peace and brotherhood?

[rb336]

Yes, if we do not tap our vast oil resources, the supply in the market diminishes and the price goes up...more profit for the Saudis.

Did anyone else notice how the per barrel prices plummeted when Bush announced a lifting of an executive prohibition on offshore drilling, and more so when the congress relented on the moratorium? Even more telling is the increases now that Obama has reinstituted the government blockage of domestic energy exploration. Liberals were erroneously attributing the earlier drop in price to decrease in demand secondary to the economic downturn...however, demand/use (and unfortunately, the economy) have not recently rebounded, so there goes that theory as the price passes 70 dollars a barrel again.


you have that bass ackwards, as usual

[ccbatson]

Ola...I did point out that I have no qualm as long as these things were not imposed on people without their consent. We then went on to debate the lack of merits for the concept (greenness).

[gazhekwe]

Well, guess which road CC will pick.

[ccbatson]

The road to liberty...of course.

[gazhekwe]

Hmm, me, too. I guess there must be different visions of that trail.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Job creation in the form of taxpayer funded subsidized to create a market that doesn't exist for an inferior and more costly product than already exists,"

LOL.... That pretty much sums it up. As long as oil is as cheap as it is, forget it. I know, I know we're running out of oil. We've been running out since 72. By all estimates at the time we were supposed to be out already. like 20 years ago.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "If we do not start planning for Seven Generations into the future,"

Like they planned for us seven generations ago?

[gazhekwe]

Seven generations ago, our people were besieged by change. They did try to plan ahead, not knowing what the future would hold. The treaties in Michigan contain provisions for education of the young people, so that they could better live in a different world. Because they were stripped of their land and livelihood, they could not very well plan for a future they could not fathom.

[gibran]

By not following the wisedom of Seven generational thinking creates the typeof world we struggle with today...and as far as the concept not being friendly to personal liberty..well if that equates to personal greed and no communal responsibility- you have to ask yourself what is liberty if it hidden behind the walls of the self absorbed.

[ccbatson]

Liberty is pure self interest and THE highest moral value possible. As a side effect, it is the most beneficial to the common good and prosperity.

[oladub]

For the fun of it, I went back into my family tree seven generations. That ancestor, Joseph De---- , was born on a different continent in 1719 eighteen years after Cadilac founded French Detroit. The US did not exist . Let's say that by 1750 he had some say in his society. This was a time in the Lowlands when, according to Poortvliet, people were freezing to death, there were packs of roaming wolves, cattle plagues, mattresses harbored mice, boys were employed at age 11, and people had scabies and defecated on the street in public. Back then, people couldn't even imagine what our world is like today. Maybe they could have worried about making whales extinct and thus running our of whale oil. Seven generations from now, we too will be looked at as ignorant brutes.

I don't mean to make light about 'seven generations', but we would be doing good to figure out how the world will change in 40 years and try to address that. Our fossil fuels are being exhausted. However, a revenue neutral tax on fossil fuels offset by a decrease in income taxes would have accomplished nearly as much ecologically and be superior financially to the massive and regressive middle class Cap and Trade tax. A carbon tax would have changed behavior. Consumers would begin living closer to work, buying smaller cars, turning off lights, etc.. There is no need for creating new bureaucracies to funnel our money through to accomplish the same thing unless, of course, the goal was other than looking after the planet.

[gazhekwe]

I actually agree with you about the 40 year plan. That is just one step on the path to planning for Seven Generations. If we could just take that ONE STEP, we would be a lot further ahead.

[ccbatson]

Our fossil fuels (not really fossil fuels, unless Dinosaurs lived on moons of Jupiter with oil/oil like materials), are being used, and have been since burning them had been discovered...so what? Running out? hardly, and our understanding of their origins, renewability and accessibility is expanding over time.

[jams]

Do tell us more about the existance of oil and its non-organic origins , Cc.

We wait with bated breath/

[DocTerry]

Gazhekwe - I think some of the miscommunication here is due to a difference in vision, yes, but also in the path followed by those who lost their original instructions. I am so pleased to see what you have posted.
t

[rb336]

Our fossil fuels (not really fossil fuels, unless Dinosaurs lived on moons of Jupiter with oil/oil like materials), are being used, and have been since burning them had been discovered...so what? Running out? hardly, and our understanding of their origins, renewability and accessibility is expanding over time.

what oil-like material is on Jupiter's moons? and a source, please.

[oladub]

Do tell us more about the existance of oil and its non-organic origins , Cc.

We wait with bated breath/

This thread is about Michigan Tribes Take the Lead on Green. Other tribes further west have been actively producing green energy since at least 2003. The Rosebud Sioux built some wind generation units then. "On February 27, 2003, the first utility-scale Native American wind turbine was installed on the Rosebud Sioux Indian Reservation." http://www.nwcommunityenergy.org/wind/wind-case-studies/rosebud-sioux Other prarie tribes have also committed to producing wind generated electricity. Maybe the tribes will get a last laugh in that the treaties did not anticipate the value of wind. They got the land with profitable #5&6 average winds.
__________________________________________________ ____________

Wrong thread for this but there is a lot of expensive to refine or deep oil if we can afford to pay the price. Canadian sand tar and Venezuelan oil are plentiful but expensive and ecologically messy to refine. Brasil has made huge new discovories but a lot of its oil is in two mile depths of ocean and quite expensive to extract. Bats should say that there is a lot of expensive oil around. Still, it is a finite resource and might be better used seven years or generations from now for some higher purpose.
http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2009/07/21/great-call-on-petrobras-whats-next.aspx (see first two paragraphs)

[gazhekwe]

Wind is a strange thing. Bay Mills Indian Community is right across the St. Mary's River from this huge Canadian wind Farm, Prince Wind Farm, Canada's largest:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5344514

http://www.beyondfossilfuel.com/windpower/canada.html

We were all really hopeful we could build our own wind farm. Come to find out, the wind goes briskly and consistently across Gros Cap where the wind farm is, and slights our side of the river. Mind, I have seen some very impressive windy days there, but apparently it isn't consistent enough to support a wind farm. We probably settled there because it wasn't as windy. :rolleyes: The related communities of Gitigaan-ziibi(Garden River) and Bawaating are not out on Gros Cap either. If you look at the map, Gros Cap sticks right out in Whitefish Bay, making it a natural wind target.

[Detroitej72]

Did anyone else notice how the per barrel prices plummeted when Bush announced a lifting of an executive prohibition on offshore drilling, and more so when the congress relented on the moratorium? Even more telling is the increases now that Obama has reinstituted the government blockage of domestic energy exploration.

The prices are falling again, this runs against what you just stated.

Also, what people fail to realize about domestic oil production is this: whatever oil we extract from our shores, must go on the global market and could very well be purchased by, say, China or India.

The right wing nuts on AM radio(and idiot politicians like Palin) fail to mention this while they chant "drill baby, drill".

[Detroitej72]

Excellent and informative posts Gazhekwe, keep them coming.

[ccbatson]

It surged then leveled, you realize the next surge is just around the corner, don't you? If we want to have some degree of control, we must not exempt ourselves from participating in the energy market on both the supply and consumption side.

[Detroitej72]

Overall, the price is set by the speculators and traders and last time I checked, they are trying to maximize profits, not offer cheaper products.

Besides, the summer months are always higher due to increase in demand, and then in the winter months, when travel is lighter the price drops.

[ccbatson]

Speculators always try to maximize profits...that is their purpose.

[gazhekwe]

DocTerry and Detroitej, thank you for letting me know you enjoy those posts.

[Gannon]

Oh you've got to know I'm eating them up, too.

[DocTerry]

Gazhekwe, I try to keep up with much of that, but don't always catch the stuff outside the Detroit-metro area and greatly appreciate it - these things don't get posted in the places I'd expect. I thank you for taking the time.

[ccbatson]

I am reluctant to say this, but I am appalled that these folks have been so thoroughly duped by the radical environmentalist's hoax.

[Detroitej72]

I am reluctant to say this, but I am appalled that these folks have been so thoroughly duped by the radical environmentalist's hoax.

Whom are you referring to as the radical environmentalist?

[jams]

I am reluctant to say this, but I am appalled that these folks have been so thoroughly duped by the radical environmentalist's hoax.
Reluctant? Hell, when did that stop you from expressing an opinion?

Even more to the point, you just did.

[ccbatson]

Al Gore as ring leader, all liberals in office (unless someone can identify an exception), and many RINOs are the folks that I consider radical environmentalists.

[Ray1936]

I've been sitting in Elk Rapids for the last week freezing my butt off. Al Gore is full of crap, and 99% of this green movement is hogwash.

[elganned]

Al Gore sits on the Tri-Lateral Committee and is an active participant in the Pentavirate. He and the Pope, the Jews, and the Masons are plotting to force the world into a Unitary government, and global warming will be the lever they use.

[elganned]

I've been sitting in Elk Rapids for the last week freezing my butt off. Al Gore is full of crap, and 99% of this green movement is hogwash.
Thunderstorms must be a myth because I just looked out my window and it isn't raining at the moment.

[Detroitej72]

Al Gore sits on the Tri-Lateral Committee and is an active participant in the Pentavirate. He and the Pope, the Jews, and the Masons are plotting to force the world into a Unitary government, and global warming will be the lever they use.

What I want to know is where do the Hare Krishna's fit into this picture? :D

[jams]

I've been sitting in Elk Rapids for the last week freezing my butt off. Al Gore is full of crap, and 99% of this green movement is hogwash.
Sorry Ray, I disagree! I want clean water in my water supply and fruits and veggies free of chemicals I don't want in my body.

[ccbatson]

Elganned...that is taking it too far into conspiracy theory...into Gannon territory.

[elganned]

What I want to know is where do the Hare Krishna's fit into this picture? :D
DON'T get me started...

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I want clean water in my water supply and fruits and veggies free of chemicals I don't want in my body."

It's not like we have a Department of Agriculture or anything. We need a Food and Drug administration too. What do you folks think these departments of government do? These are some ruthless people, anyone involved with anything people ingest, fail to cross a T or dot an I and they come down on them like a ton of bricks. That isn't hearsay. They are like the IRS on steroids. As soon as any product is found to have a negative affect on the consumer, it is removed from the shelves instantly. If a chemical used in food is bad for anyone, it will be removed.

[ccbatson]

Watch Penn and Teller's BS next week as they debunk the Organic Food industry scam.

[gazhekwe]

Interesting twist. To return to the tribal angle, I am just back from Prophetstown, Indiana. The Prophet, Tenskwataawaa, was Tecumseh's brother. Together, they established this town as the center of their new movement. Tecumseh traveled far and wide to enlist the support from tribes as far south as the Gulf of Mexico, and as far north as Canada, to try to prevent the oncoming settlers from taking over the Ohio territory and beyond. Tenskwataawaa was the spiritual leader, and the principal leadership of Prophetstown. His teachings were to return to the natural life, stop eating processed foods, and only eat things you could catch or grow yourself. He also wanted to abandon the foreign language and garb, and above all, give up all forms of liquor.

Unfortunately, as history tells us, Tenskwataawaa was not a good war strategist. In 1811, while Tecumseh was away, gathering support to fight territorial governor William Henry Harrison, Tenskwataawaa challenged Harrison, resulting in a huge loss for his people at Tippecanoe and the destruction of Prophetstown at the hands of old Tippecanoe and Tyler too. This substantially ended the brothers' ambitious plans to defeat colonialism and re-establish native dominance in the area.

[ccbatson]

Well, just because this Tenskwataawaa was gullible about "organic foods" doesn't make him all bad....does it?

[gazhekwe]

Only thing I have against Tenskwataawaa is his stupid move to get WHH riled up enough to attack while he had only the local guys around to fight back. That's what sibling rivalry will do for you.

About the food, actually, the diabetes rate is so high among the Tohono O'odham (Pima), that there is now a strong health movement down there to return to the natural foods. Those include things like prickly pear cactus, which are very prolific but are typically not cultivated by the Tohono O'odham, so must be gathered in the wild. The gathering is therefore difficult for people living current lifestyles with jobs that keep them busy many hours a day.

The cacti are commercially grown in many places, and the pads or tuna are sold in farmers' markets. Ways to grow these in a more convenient setting, gather and process them for wider distribution among the Tohono O'odham are being studied. Lovers of Mexican food have eaten prickly pear. The most common food product is called nopales.

Prickly pear grow as far north as Michigan, and have been available in the southwest part of the state for many generations. You have to really be careful as those little pickers come off really easily and stick in your skin. You sure don't want to eat those. Here is an article about how prickly pear can help normalize blood sugar: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0826/is_1_21/ai_n8563785/

[Sstashmoo]

This lady has a pretty good take on the Organic food BUSINESS:

Quote:"How have consumers been enticed to pay more for products that are potentially less safe than their conventional counterparts? The organic food scam depends on tapping into cultural myths about nature, playing upon widespread misunderstanding of risk, and flattering consumers into believing that those who choose organic food are “empowered.”.

Quote: "Marketers of organic products depict the modern world as a deeply distorted reflection of what it originally was - the garden before agro-chemical technology. While the values of the past include family, tradition, authenticity, peace, and simplicity, the current era is associated with broken family ties that need to be restored, scientific "advances" that pose threats, constant pressure on the well-being of humans, and unnecessary complexity in everyday life.""

Quote: "Naturalness appears as a rich emotional construct that connects with positive contemporary images of nature... People do not want to remember that nature can also be destructive as in deadly hurricanes and poisonous mushrooms ... In a natural health context, Thompson also finds nature to be a positively framed powerful mythic construction; and his informants attribute magical, regenerative powers to nature. They firmly believe that aligning with what nature has to offer for one’s health lets them assert control over their lives and bodies versus losing control by being complicit in a scientized medical system.""

Quote: "In addition, marketing professionals exploit the lack of understanding about risk. We routinely panic about insignificant health risks (high tension wires, X-rays) and routinely ignore large health risks (driving without a seatbelt, tanning). Hence, consumers routinely obsess about insignificant health risks that have never even been shown to occur (pesticides, hormones) and routinely ignored large health risks (foodborne illness caused by bacteria like E. coli and salmonella in the animal waste used as fertilizer) that have been associated with widespread outbreaks of illness and even death."

http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/2009/07/organic-food-scam.html

[gazhekwe]

I agree with a lot of that, "natural" as advertising hype to increase the price.

What you can take from that is the same as always, Caveat Emptor. Watch out for that Snake Oil.

On the other hand, returning to a more natural style of eating by getting more locally produced fresh foods and preparing them yourself would be a GOOD thing. Buy the fruits and vegetables from the local farm market, wash them, prepare as you like, and enjoy. There are also local sources of meats raised without hormones, and local bakeshops where you can buy locally made breads and sweet goodies. If you make the sweets yourself, you can cut way down on the sugar which, to me, tastes much much better.

I watched an Anishinaabe Okemos (grandmother) prepare goulette (bread like a big flat biscuit) in typical grandma style (This much flour, or maybe a little more or less, using her hands to scoop it out). She was from Batchawana Bay, Ontario. She said the Canadian flour was milled differently than American white flour, and made a better bread that was less crumby and rose higher. More gluten maybe? Anybody else think Canadian flour is better?

[ccbatson]

Time tested preservatives and agricultural manipulations to increase yield and quality deliver on the promise that they make....therefore, these "unnatural" products are usually (not always) superior and less costly.

[gazhekwe]

Did you read that article I posted in #55, cc? I am interested in your perspective on the useful qualities of nopal.

[ccbatson]

??It is a fruit, generally speaking, in moderation, fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, and meats (the 4 basic food groups) are healthy. There are no "miracle foods" just negatives of foods overindulged in and out of balance.

[ccbatson]

I am not sure that I answered your question there. What do I think of Prickly Pears/Nopal? The same thing that I think about apples, oranges, bananas, etc...per the previously described recommendation of balance and moderation.

[gazhekwe]

You didn't read the article. I wanted your perspective on the qualities described in the article, which are more specific than your vegetable/fruit nutritional values.

[ccbatson]

I did on both counts...there are no such qualities.

[gazhekwe]

OK, so you trust pharma over natural substances to the extent that testing of natural substances is irrelevant? For my part, I feel that modern medicine and big pharma are overlooking some serious contenders in the natural world, quite possibly because they can't make any money off them, since the natural substances can't be patented. Money can certainly buy a lot of things, but in this case, it seems to prevent development of some promising treatments.

[elganned]

All I can say is that "road apples" are 100% organic and all-natural...but I still don't want to eat them.

[ccbatson]

Real testing and real science is not irrelevant when it comes to medicine. Of course this applies to far more than just ingested substances to include various therapies, lab results, procedures, etc.

Pseudoscience and charlatanism as is on display with stories like this prickly pear as miracle food...are pure deception and not to be trusted.

[gazhekwe]

Aren't you just discounting the research because you disagree with it? The author is a registered dietician, PhD, professor of nutrition who alludes to other studies in the article. Among the other studies is one conducted by several doctors including Dr. Alberto Frati-Munari, Director of Medications at a specialty internal medicine hospital.

http://www.jpacd.org/Castaned1.pdf

[ccbatson]

No...the research (real science) does not support the claims made.

This week's Penn and Teller BS on the subject was FANTASTIC.

[gazhekwe]

I did not make any claims. I was asking you about your take on tests showing certain qualities of Opuntia. Penn and Teller, not quite medical experts are they? We are not talking about New Age medicine. This is age old medicine, now being discovered and tested by modern science.

The research I cited was by real scientists. I would appreciate you citing your sources as well.

[ccbatson]

OK...those tests made the false and pseudoscientific claims, not you...the assessment and conclusion is still the same.

No need to cite sources...the entity making the claim has to meet the standard for the burden of proof, they have not.

[gazhekwe]

Oh, well, never mind, CC. I guess you just don't have a clue. The tests I cited were not done by unprofessional crystal gazers as you keep implying. You ignored my post on the qualifications and links to some test reports. All you are doing is sloganeering with no supporting data.

[ccbatson]

Watch Penn and Teller's show for starters and an eye opener Gaz. Then peruse a periodical called "Skeptic".

[gazhekwe]

Darling CC, I did watch some of it. The part I saw had nothing to discount the science I am trying to get you to discuss. All I saw was a whole bunch of bleeped negative comments over someone describing their unsubstantiated beliefs. Of course, the beliefs are ancient, but there was no scientific study cited to bring it into the 21st century modern belief system.

[ccbatson]

"Part of it"? It is less than 1 hour, why not all of it? You will not get the message unless you pay attention to it all.

[ccbatson]

Even the die hard organics had to admit their own errors of judgment when facing the facts illustrated in Penn and Teller's inimitable and hilarious style.

[gazhekwe]

Well, since you did not provide a link, I only found part of the show. Got a link to what you want me to watch? If I watch it will you read the articles I posted?

It was a pretty obvious message by the way, hard to miss the point even in the part I saw.

[ccbatson]

Link? It is a cable program..showtime in particular. You may have to wait for it to be available for purchase if you don't subscribe to the service.

No, I don't have a link to provide a path to pirating someone's intellectual property for you...sorry.

[gazhekwe]

Well, I guess I can't watch any more of it. I still don't see how non-scientist magicians can comment other than as entertainers. Perhaps they give cites in the show that you can share. Otherwise, your weapons are just so much hot air, while I have presented facts. I don't plan to continue this fruitless line without some facts so, until I see data after your ID, I will not respond.

[ccbatson]

You will have to wait...the hosts are just that...hosts, they have experts and scientists representing both sides on the show. The underlying thread linking it together is the common sense and logic factor.

In the meantime, check out the magazine I suggested (Skeptic). Believe it or not, even one of the staunch liberals on Dyes has referred to this source in a positive light.

[gazhekwe]

You're a funny kind of doctor all right, getting your medical info from Penn and Teller and ignoring published studies. Well, that does it for me. I thought so.

[ccbatson]

As if I get it all from them...I suggest it to you because it explains a lot to the lay person.